Defensive Accuracy vs. Bench Rest Performance
This is a discussion on Defensive Accuracy vs. Bench Rest Performance within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; At another forum where a large percentage of the posters should know better (but a core group of whom nonetheless spend their time telling themselves ...
December 7th, 2005 10:35 AM
Defensive Accuracy vs. Bench Rest Performance
At another forum where a large percentage of the posters should know better (but a core group of whom nonetheless spend their time telling themselves how one-percent they are compared to the infidels and unbelievers outside their inner circle), one fellow indicated that my groupings in these 25-yard targets were less than impressive:
Granted, compared to this one fellow on Glocktalk (yet another forum) who claimed to be getting all his bullets into one large hole from several football fields away, these are nothing to write home about. They are, however, sufficient to drop a man-sized target from distances much farther away than I'm likely to have to shoot a person.
Now, I could fake my results when I take pictures, I suppose; it would certainly make my life easier when those who constantly freak out over the fact that I spend my time creating productive and useful work go out of their way to over-analyze everything I do.
Call me crazy, but I'm of the opinion that self-defense is not a popularity contest and is not a question of how tough a guy you want everyone else to believe you to be. It isn't even about to which clique you belong.
In the meantime, I intend to continue realistically evaluating real-life results.
Call me crazy.
December 7th, 2005 10:35 AM
December 7th, 2005 10:59 AM
seems like acceptable groups. As long as you can do the same under stress. Too many see movies depicting rapid fire in the same hole or nearly so. Realistically it isn't gonna happen unless yer real close.
December 7th, 2005 11:18 AM
Based on your groups I for one wouldn't want you tossing lead in my direction!
USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947
December 7th, 2005 11:43 AM
There is a chasm - between bench rest type shooters and the remainder, majority.
Some of my early comp's included bullseye at 25 yds, outdoors, usually using my 686. Always quite a challenge to stay well in the black. That was of course taking pretty much all the time I needed.
Other comp's again often had 25 yard starting stages - turning targets tho with time factors. None of this was real world in a combat sense and anyone who expects 10's and 9's at that distance under stress is on another planet!
Frankly - and again considering 25 yards - all shots on the paper is more than acceptable when speed and stress involved. For most folks, out of say 10 shots in those conditions, I'd expect first shot (if a draw from leather) to probably miss and maybe one or two others as well. This is reality.
I have come across a good many less than experienced shooters who under stress would be lucky to get a coupla hits at 10 yards - let alone 25!!!
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
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December 7th, 2005 11:51 AM
Last night our club ran a mini-IDPA match and drills. One of the stages wasn't quite IDPA legal but the idea was to practice shooting on the move in a stage that had them zigzagging. I was the Safety Officer for that stage and I added a bit of stress by screaming MOVE MOVE MOVE and assorted "colorful" (Technicolor 4 letter words included) phrases to the shooters. It was amazing to see how some shooters, normally accurate, totally went wild in their shooting. The very bright side was that most of them did not just let it go at that but made up their shots when they realized they were hitting everything but the paper.
Originally Posted by rocky
And echoing srfl's sentiment, I wouldn't want to be in the recieving end of your lead eaither.
You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
December 7th, 2005 12:46 PM
Those Groups are fine in fact you dont want to put them all in one hole on a person as it loses shock value.
December 7th, 2005 01:11 PM
There's competitive target shooting and then there's combat shooting. I don't understand why people try to use the standards of one to grade the other. Your targets may be "eh, okay" if you're going for must-hit-the-tiny-circle-in-the-middle so you can win a shiny trophy. For combat shooting, especially at 25 yards and not taking your time, you killed the target well.
I mostly do combat shooting. I use my bull-barrel Ruger Mark II for target shooting.
My friend Paul has a nice collection of crusty battle rifles. I've seen this guy sit on top of a hill and rapid rifle a man-sized target below with iron sights. Die-hard competition shooters might not be impressed with the pie-plate grouping, but I know who I want in the trenches with me.
"Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa
December 7th, 2005 01:17 PM
Phil Dont worry about the online " mall ninjas" if your grouping like that @ 25 yrds your doing something right. it isnt about what " clique" approves of you on a gunboard , its about going home to your family every night without fail. You seem to have the accuracy to do that if you have the situational awareness and mindset Best to ya
December 7th, 2005 01:52 PM
Looks to be COM. Nothing wrong with that.
"Life's tough......It's even tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
December 7th, 2005 02:13 PM
When I introduced IPSC shooting at Central Jersey Rifle & Pistol Club back in the 80s, all the bullseye shooters responded by saying, "Good grief, they'e shooting at A zones (as if other bullseye shooters knew what an A zone was) that are the size of dinner plates at ranges of 5 and 10 yards!"
Then they tried it.
There's a reason The Sopranos
is set in New Jersey.
December 7th, 2005 04:06 PM
Those are more than acceptable groups for practical defensive shooting. Whatever equals a "hit man" out there at 25 is O~Kee~Doke w/ me. I really like it better when folks are popping at Bad Guy targets for defensive shooting practice though.
December 7th, 2005 05:28 PM
Those that can do, and those that can't, often belittle those that can...such is the "clique" that criticize those results. Good shootin' as far as I'm concerned...but never let up, keep practicing (QK, the BG targets aren't a bad idea--I'm going to get some for the wife and I).
noli nothis permittere te terere...
December 7th, 2005 05:43 PM
I like using the BG targets if possible too. But also want em with rings or a center point to shoot at sometimes. The old b27 (I think) were made to look off center with the shadowing and picture.
Best target I have is a 3 D Delta target , gut holding a uzi at waist level. Looks so real it scares people who first glimpse it. (fun to hide in showers or behind doors for guests to find)
December 7th, 2005 05:49 PM
1951 - 2011
Hello. I shoot both bullseye and the more "practical" defensive drills. I do not see it as an "either/or" situation. In my opinion, there is a place for both these aspects of handgun marksmanship.
Speaking only for myself, I cannot shoot as tight of groups at speed and under simulated defense scenarios, but still believe that being able to make precise shots is not a bad thing.
Before I left police service, a friend of mine was involved in a shootout with an felon who was shooting at him with a 30-carbine. It turned out alright when my friend managed a solid chest hit on his last revolver shot at 60 yards. Greater distance than the average police shootout I believe and certainly so for the armed private citizen, but I would still prefer to have that capability even if the chances of having to use it is statistically miniscule.
So, for me, even if super precise accuracy is probably not a necessity,
it is probably a good thing to have. If my primary purpose in having a handgun were strictly self-protection and I could have only quick and coarse but acceptable for defense accuracy vs slower more precise accuracy, I'd probably go for the former.
I think most folks can have both if it is important to them.
Best and whatever discipline trips your trigger, good shooting.
December 7th, 2005 07:41 PM
Since I am lousy with history, I think it was Wild Bill who gave the best advice on winning a gun fight. It was to take your time, be accurate, but hurry.
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