AR15 Pistol build requirements - Page 2

AR15 Pistol build requirements

This is a discussion on AR15 Pistol build requirements within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; ok - one more spin on this one- The letter posted relates to the assembly of a pistol from either a dedicated pistol lower or ...

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Thread: AR15 Pistol build requirements

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    ok - one more spin on this one-

    The letter posted relates to the assembly of a pistol from either a dedicated pistol lower or a virgin rifle lower.

    It is really not in anyones best interest to try and argue about 'configuring' and 'reconfiguring' with this letter, since that is not it's subject.


    One more example -
    you have a pistol, no stock, 7"bbl.
    you install a RDIAS - that allows a butstock or fwd vertical grip.
    Then you install a butstock (covered under RDIAS 'trump' clause)
    Then you swap on a 20" barrel.
    You remove the buttstock, and then RDIAS.

    What is the status of the receiver ? Pistol? Rifle? SBR? MG ?

    It was a pistol initially.
    Never even was a rifle nor SBR.
    Does that mean the pistol receiver is now a MG ?!?!


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    So that would be kinda like " once a rifle always a rifle " ?
    Actually, yes. If you build it as a rifle, it is a rifle, and it cannot later become anything else without a tax stamp. A rifle has definitions for bbl length and overall length. Violate lengths and you are in trouble.

    If you build it as a pistol it is a pistol. A pistol can be configured as a rifle. BATF said so in this letter - they say you can put a rifle config on a pistol receiver. (note that they do not say if, or how, you can go back to a pistol config)

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Once you cofigure an AR15 lower to a pistol that has never been used as a rifle lower,you cannot put a stock on it even with a longer barrel.The ATF has a tendency to prosecute people for violating laws they weren't even aware of and that letter is pretty specific.but you do whatever you want
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Once you cofigure an AR15 lower to a pistol that has never been used as a rifle lower,you cannot put a stock on it even with a longer barrel.The ATF has a tendency to prosecute people for violating laws they weren't even aware of and that letter is pretty specific.but you do whatever you want
    Where does it say that in the letter?

    The letter says you can't build a pistol from a receiver that has been used to build a rifle.

    If ya build it as a pistol, it's a pistol - for ever and ever (unless you stamp it). It can always be configured back as a pistol.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    This thread is a fun read. This issue is always controversial. This is not legal advice:

    You can take a virgin receiver never having a shoulder stock attached to it and make either a pistol or rifle out of it.

    Once you put a shoulder stock on the receiver, it is a rifle and will always be a rifle.

    If after you put a shoulder stock on the receiver you install a sub-16 inch barrel is it a SBR and a Form 1 must be filed with a $200 making tax before you do so.

    There is no barrel length restriction for a pistol. You can have a pistol with a two foot barrel on it if you want to.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Folks all i can say is that i am " somewhat " aware of what might make an NFA item . And i am somewhat aware of what BATFE has done in recent years . With that said I own an AR15 among other evil rifles . I wont own an " ar pistol " as long as i own my rifle . the " AK pistols " are off my list too and for the same reasons . I have to say tho that if i lived in " urban america " a ar or ak pistol might well make more sense to me than my rifles do out here in flyover country . Were i to live there , well i would want tools to help me to get out of town while being portable . Where i live tho i am out of town and my tools go to repelling the folks who " got out of town " lol .
    If you want an ar or ak pistol , well get it done . However i will suggest you read up on the federal rules with an eye as to how can i be in violation , and stay away from that . BATFE wont try to excuse you , and with a few reservations the federal courts wont either . This is a wonderful thread in the sense that it can be read as a " rights " thread , or a "NFA control " thread . Both sides on this have made compelling arguments about just what a " pistol " may or may not be . At my last post here i will mention that i have a buddy in a neighboring state who owns a " pistol " AR . He also owns a " plumbing " business ( he is a ditch digger as a profession ) . Sometimes one could find in the back of his pickup some " scrap " pvc which could really resemble a stock for an AR pistol , and he seems able to " roll coyotes " at ranges that are unusual for non silhouette shooters with said handgun . The same fella has a " bullpup " .50 . Its a hoot to shoot and literally you look at cars a mile away ( or more ) for targets , while i put the rifle in my fender telecaster case . Just why he would risk ownership by cheating the law i dont know . I wont and neither should you . I own an AR now . Unless and untill the ownership of machine tools becomes " constructive " possession i will take no chances . I did own a pre 86 DIAS which i no longer own , heck it did not work that well anyway when one is used to both shooting " uncle sugar's " rifles and ammo. Nowadays i worry about our " getting started " gunsmiths who might purchase an AK74 " krink " kit and assemble it making a new receiver and no other changes . Folks i can build a gun at home , I can build almost any gun at home and be legal . However when i build a gun it is my responsibility to build a legal gun . So far i have built up a couple of AK rifles ( from kits ) an AR rifle ( from an incomplete casting ) and a couple of 1911s again from castings of frames ) . my current project is to mate a .50 bmg single shot upper to an ar lower . It can and has been done LOL but somehow i just want to do it myself .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

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  7. #22
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Just to dispell any myths,I plan to place a call to the ATF on monday,I will post what specific questions I asked were and the answers I received.
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    dukalmighty thanks , please post any first hand info is a good thing . If you can well please record your visit and post the mp3 . Understand hand i belive you , i just have credibility problems with them . No matter what they say or how they say it , if you can document it its a good thing .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

    Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Just to dispell any myths,I plan to place a call to the ATF on monday,I will post what specific questions I asked were and the answers I received.
    Ask two ATF agents you will get 17 different answers.

    Trust me.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array Rustynuts's Avatar
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    We need a sacrificial lamb to go to court over it!

    This whole pistol/rifle thing is ridiculous. Why do they even care other than the tax stamp revenue? Preventing criminals from concealing a formerly longer/more deadly rifle/shotgun? If that's the only case, they shouldn't care if you convert a pistol to a rifle, only going shorter (SBR). Who really cares if you have two vertical grips on a pistol, etc.? Makes it that much harder to holster and conceal! Stupid government being stupid.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    The NFA of 1934 was intended to place controls on machine guns, suppressors, and all concealable weapons including handguns, which would be considered AOWs subject to a $5 transfer tax. The government thought women whom wanted to carry a pistol for protection shouldn't be taxed, so all handguns were removed from the list. Everything else stayed. That is why the short barrel weapon controls don't make sense when we can walk around with a concealed handgun. If handguns were in fact placed into the NFA registry, it surely would be a different world.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    IIRC NFA34 originally had a $200 tax on AOWs. In the past, the taxes have been reduced. IIRC the game getter was a $1 or $2 or $10 stamp, AOWs ended up at 5, etc.

    dukalmighty- send the question in writing.

    Rusty - ATF is not known for consistent or logical decisions ! Making a pistol config from a rifle violates the 26"/16" requirements on a rifle receiver - so the only way you can shorten a rifle will make it a SBR. Pistols have no length requirements at all so there is no rule to violate. Pistols, however, are designed to be fired with one hand (so shoulder stocks and foregrips are out).
    As to what magic allows the transition to go one way and not the other - the ONLY thing I can think of is you must be 21 to buy a handgun from a dealer, and 18 for a rifle. That means that handguns are more tightly regulated and the SBR thing would keep an 18YO from buying a rifle and making it into a pistol. Ironically, an 18YO can own NFA items but can't transfer them through a dealer until they are 21. That leaves enterprising teens to buy NFA goodies in state on F4s or build their own on F1s.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shizzlemah View Post
    Ironically, an 18YO can own NFA items but can't transfer them through a dealer until they are 21. That leaves enterprising teens to buy NFA goodies in state on F4s or build their own on F1s.
    Correct. You can be 18yo and file a Form 1 for a suppressor, SBR, SBS, DD, or AOW. Everything but a MG.

    Here's a link to the original bill for NFA as well as dialogue from Congress and then president of the NRA. The NRA has been, is, and will always be anti-NFA weapons. They will not fight any case involving NFA weapons. This is the major reason why I revoked my Life Membership with the NRA.

    1934 NFA HEARINGS
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Correct. You can be 18yo and file a Form 1 for a suppressor, SBR, SBS, DD, or AOW. Everything but a MG.

    I'm well over 18 and still cant file a form 1 for a MG :-) Infact, anyone under 40 has never been able to file a F1 for a MG !

    Although I bet an 18YO could do a $200 F1 for a REWAT MG.

    NFA, the hobby that keeps on pointing out the stupidity of the system!

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    That's why I said you could Form 1 everything but a MG. I'm lucky because I can Form 2 them.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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