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Could I be in big trouble?

2K views 26 replies 17 participants last post by  MP45CDE 
#1 ·
Other than the fact that I'm posting the question itself :blink: , my question for your contemplation is this:

If I were to go to the next gun show here in Missouri and sell all my weapons to Bubba Smith out in the parking lot, and NOT get any sort of receipt or anything (which I am told is perfectly legal, at least here in Missouri), if the gun natzis ever knocked on my door to take my weapons, just exactly what kind of trouble would I be in if I told the truth that I had sold 'em all to some guy outside the gun show last fall and I didn't get his name?

:confused:
 
#3 ·
How respectful would the next dozen "confiscation Nazis" be, do you think, if that were your story?

I don't know Missouri's laws that control what you're able to do with a purchase/sale. What are the exact statutes and what do they say on the matter? Check 571.060 and 571.070.

But paperless means one thing: you have little to counter a claim made against you that you were involved in a crime, that you've still got a wanted gun, that ... No way around that, other than being right. Me, I'd prefer a bit more to hang on, than simply being right. But that's just me.

Here in Oregon, there's no real paperwork requirement. Transactions can be face-to-face and paperless. The state does maintain a phone number where you can do a quickie insta-check on someone and on a firearm, but it's only available if you want to use it. For myself, if I'm letting go some equipment, I make sure I document the concept. Doesn't mean the state needs to know outright (at time of sale), but it can help protect me against some future crime done with that gun by someone else. I, too, am wary of just how little regard for basic rights and rule of law someone might have, in future.
 
#4 ·
What could they do? Ask you to claim the income on your taxes? Bring in a sketch artist maybe? How about you just posting them here on the forum in the member B/S/T?
 
#5 ·
I sold a colt chief special to a guy (private sale). No paperwork, nothing. My regular gun dealer set it up, and the transaction occurred at our home. There are tons of private sales all the time. I'm always checking the classifieds in our local paper for deals.
 
#6 ·
MP45CDE, as JD's link illustrates, there is no specific paperwork required by Missouri or the BATFE. Most people, myself included, consider a boiler plate bill of sale to be essential for covering your butt in case the buyer does something stupid with the weapon - and it also protects the buyer in case you just strafed you mother in law's house with it the week before.

At the minimum, I would include on the BOS both parties name, address, phone number and Driver's License/State ID number. This shows due diligence in making sure you were selling to a resident of the same state.

If you have any concerns as to their eligibility vis-a-vis a criminal record etc., you could insist on a CCW as a condition of sale. As good as a NICS check for private transactions.

Now, that's all well and good for right now.

If Obama's blue helmets show up next year on confiscation patrol, having disposition records of all your guns is the least of your worries.

Joe
 
#7 ·
OK--let's get back on track. It's legal, already! (to sell privately)

Are they going to buy my cockamamie story?! What could they really do??
 
#10 ·
In Mi there is always a paper trail, one that we need to get rid of, called registration (for hand guns) Long guns are a different story, other than the place you bought it from there is no record.
 
#11 ·
Back to your topic...no, they probably would not buy your story without any paperwork. They would most likely destroy your house looking for it. If you need a field tilled, you could have somebody drop an anonymous note that they are buried in your back 40.

You could at least let the gov't do the digging for you.

As far as getting in trouble, in your situation, you seem to be talking about an outright ban on firearms and a door to door search of 'registered owners'. Well, if it's gone that far, all bets are off. They could do everything from wink at you and go to the next house, arrest you until you tell them who you sold them to, or tear your house apart looking for them.

Under the circumstances you are discussing, your rights have already been eliminated. You, and all of us, would be at the mercy of our gov't.

Resistance would be mid to large scale. Martial law would have already been implemented, and your rights and due process would be a distant memory.

In other words, your scenario would bring us to the point which caused the Framers to include the 2nd Amendment in the first place.
 
#12 ·
Put it this way. You sell your Glock 19 to Billy Bob in the parking lot. Three weeks later it turns up in a murder investigation and you fingerprints are found of the magazine or slide where you didn't wipe them off good and ole Billy Bob didn't either. The police show up at your door asking where you were the night Sallie Mae was shot and you were home alone watching Monday Night Football. You better have something saying you sold the gun to Billy Bob.
 
#17 ·
The OP isn't talking about a gun he 'sold' later being used in a crime.

He is talking about a gun that is 'registered' to him, 'not' being in his possession anymore when the gun grabbers are raiding door to door(i.e. owning the gun becomes a crime).

And I say again, when that happens, there won't be due process.
 
#18 · (Edited)
When the gun grabbers start going door to door grabbiing guns I am afraid that whether or not we have the guns that the records show we have are going to be the least of our worries. When the nazis started rounding up the Jews it really didn't matter what legal records they had. As you say due process won't exist. As much as some want to predict Obama will not be signing an executive order on his first day to confiscate all guns.
 
#20 ·
Id rather have paperwork just to cover my a$$, in any of the situations described above. Either for defense in an investigation involving one of the sold weapons, to some German SS or Katrina happening where all of our guns get confiscated (see "Papers, please" :( ).


I KNOW it's none of my business, but why would you want to go record-free in the first place. Are you just asking about a certain scenario to get our input or are you actually planning on doing this? To me I would never do that because to LEO or similar it would sound/look suspicious to have no paper trail or at least some record or legit bill of sale, at least in this situation where your the seller and your weapons could be used for anything after they are out of your possession. It's a different story to me if your BUYING the weapon, they shouldn't want records of buyers/owners.
 
#21 ·
Im confused as to why you think it should be different if the OP was buying a weapon versus selling the weapon.Why wouldn't the seller want the same protection from any future possible prosecution in selling his or her weapon as the OP? Just curious.
 
#22 ·
I may be wrong in my assumption, but only when you buy a gun through a licensed FFL dealer do you fill out required paperwork (Form 4473) for the feds. As per federal law (state requirements vary so check your own) private sales of guns require no paperwork or record. Only a FFL dealer is required to maintain any paperwork and nothing is sent to any government office, so the BATF would need to review EVERY FFL's records, in person, to see who's purchased weapons and when it was done. It's always possible, but consider how many guns have been sold over the years... 10's of millions. That's a lot of paper to review and what about legacy guns passed down from one person to another, guns given and/or received as gifts or guns acquired before the requirements (1968 I think) took effect? Also, how many gun owners have died, moved or simply disposed of a gun that no longer worked? And how will anyone prove different if you were to say you dropped a gun in a river while hunting/fishing or it was stolen during a burglary or robbery?

I keep the bill's of sale for all my guns. It's for proof of ownership in case they are destroyed, lost or stolen and I want to file a report with the police and/or insurance company, not for fear of the police and the need to prove to the "authorities" my guns do (or don't) belong to me. Agree or not but personally, me'thinks most of you worry too much - as if there aren't enough real problems to deal with these days - and this is all much ado about nothing. :aargh4:
 
#25 ·
Due to the responses in this thread, I am surprised by the very good charactor of those in this forum and encouraged overall because I think that this eCommunity reflects the overall charactor of 2A believers as a whole. Unfortunately, law-abiding integrity like that shown in this thread may be what winds up allowing dishonest folks to do away with the 2A right under our noses...which is not to say that I advocate dishonesty or breaking the law--because I don't.

Am I correct that the concensus is that, if we were ever in the situation where we would have to give up our weapons, if we didn't give them up we'd be in the same impossible situation as if we hid them and said that we had sold them to some guy in the parking lot at the gun show? Either way we have no rights and our decision would be between whether we would live in a country governed by a government too powerful to live free within safely, or whether we would fight--literally fight--against it and be abused by it to the point of imprisonment or death.

What would you do, really. The answer you give to this question here in cyberspace, where it's easy to be brave and bold, may not really be the route you choose. What about your family? Would you make them sacrifice more than they had already lost through the transformation of our great country from freedom to opression and leave them alone to fend for themselves?

What can they really do? Anything they want. The worse part about this whole realistic scenario is that its coming and we're just complacent enough to be too busy to vote.
 
#27 ·
Wow. Now that's a thread.
 
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