October 12th, 2008 05:54 PM
How many would use a duty-type security holster when OCing?
Let me start off by saying that this thread is not intended to discuss anyone's opinions for or against open carry, and I hope that we can stay on topic.
I was reading a story on one of the local gun forums about an open carrier in a Minneapolis gas station who was surrounded by LEOs, disarmed at gunpoint, and eventually issued a trespass notice by the gas station manager. It seems that one of these stories pops up every so often around here, and it's another debate for another day.
What concerned me is the location of the gas station (right near the 'hood), the fact that it's generally very busy (with the customers forced to wait in groups for the next available cashier), and that the open carrier had a Glock 17 in what was presumably a concealment holster.
I've been to an open carry gun rights gathering, and have also seen a few people OCing; it's always in an open-top or thumb break concealment holster. What strikes me is how easy it would be for a BG to sneak up behind one of those people and disarm them....especially someplace like a busy gas station, where you're forced to stand very close to other customers, who may be of questionable character. The average armed civilian probably doesn't have weapon retention training.....I would venture to say most don't.
When I brought up my concerns on the other forum, I was suprised at the response; a few guys said it's a non-issue, a few others said they had such superior SA that they'd be able to fight any potential gun grabber off with a knife (or their BUG), one guy said he'd never use that type of holster because it'd make him look like a cop, and one woman actually became irritated with me (she told me that carrying in a level 2 or 3 holster would make her vulnerable to an attack, since she wouldn't be able to draw in time, it was her right to carry her gun any way she wanted, and I would get myself killed if I attempted it myself). Reading those replies left me asking myself Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.
If I decided to get serious about OC, I'd look into weapon retention training, and I wouldn't do it without at least a level 2 holster (the Blackhawk SERPA level 3 duty holster looks like it'd fit the bill nicely). I can't understand why someone who carries a gun in preparation for something that likely will never happen, would give so little thought to (or actually scoff at) the possibility of becoming a target of violence due to carrying openly in a crowded public place.
I realize that a security holster is going to require a few extra steps to unholster your weapon, but I really think it's a non-issue, because we should be training with any new holster or gear before we use it.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil...
October 12th, 2008 07:58 PM
If you train the with the level 2 or 3 the time difference is really a non factor.I don't think any extra steps when drawing if your hands are in proper position.
October 12th, 2008 08:10 PM
If I were to start open carrying in public for some reason, I'd use one.
October 12th, 2008 08:23 PM
I OCed in WA before I got my permit. I used a SERPA. If the weapon is in sight, I want retention.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
October 12th, 2008 08:26 PM
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October 12th, 2008 10:00 PM
I can draw pretty fast with my C-TAC, including getting my cover garment out of the way. That is because I've done it many, many times. If I carried open, I would want a similar holster if possible. Retention is a must. I would train with it just as hard, but train differently as the circumstances are now different.
Gun control can be blamed in part for allowing 9/11 to happen.
"Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" (Latin)- "If you want peace, prepare for war".
October 12th, 2008 10:16 PM
Concealed or open, my main concern is to be able to draw with either hand; there are many reason why the strong hand is not in a position to draw, sometimes as stupid as loosing your balance and having to hold onto something.
Who said: In a SD situation, if you have a perfect shooting stance, you are not fast enough.
I never used a retention holster so I don't know how easy it is to use with the other hand ?
The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
The second rule: "Bring enough gun"
jfl (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)
October 12th, 2008 10:34 PM
I use all open top holsters for my OWB concealed carry. If I were to open carry, my current holsters would still be my choice. Not saying a retention type holster is a good or bad thing, just that I don't believe nor subscribe to the thinking that one is better overall. My holsters have a forward cant except for one straight drop OWB. Whenever I am stationary, my forearm rests over the pistol, and I position myself so that backdoor onlookers wouldn't have the opportunity. Mind you...I do this concealed! Same would go if I were carrying openly. My thinking for the possible situations you describe may very well be a plus for wearing cross-draw. We are not thinking just simply situation awareness now....we must be thinking weapon awareness. When a person carries, they make their weapon accessible in an emergency. Likewise....the same people are more than able to make their weapon unavailable to anyone else around them. Personally, I don't feel the necessity for a thumb-break or retention holster in an open carry environment....and I never will. Just my opinion. Again...I'm neither for nor against anyone's thinking on the subject.
October 12th, 2008 11:10 PM
I OC my 1911 in a SERPA really far forward, almost at 2:00. I met a police officer that wore his that far up; he suggested it; I tried and liked it.
The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.
NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, Tennessee Certified Instructor
October 13th, 2008 02:16 AM
I don't know if any members have watched the Gould & Goodrich Video but, they have a new line of retention holsters that you might want to check out.
They have one civilian or off duty rig for concealment with retention that looks like it will pull the firearm butt into the body decently close.
They appear to be really swift and easy.
I have absolutely no first hand experience with them though.
You might want to watch the Vid on their web site and make a determination for yourself.
They look interesting.
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