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Clarification of a straw purchase?

7K views 38 replies 20 participants last post by  NavyLT 
#1 ·
A straw purchase is defined as someone buying a firearm for someone who would be unable to own it right?

If the above is the true definition, then assuming someone is 18 but not 21, could you have someone buy a handgun for you legally?
In Washington State, you can legally own a handgun at 18, can carry it concealed in your home, your work, and any property owned by your family, but you cannot buy one from an FFL until youre 21.

Since someone who is 18 could legally own a handgun, wouldn't that be an exemption of a straw purchase? Or am I completely wrong?
Is there a legal solution?
 
#2 ·
That could be one of those ‘pends on situations, if a parent or guardian purchased a handgun as a gift for someone who is less than 21 that is legal, but if someone bought a handgun for someone else then it may fall into the straw purchase category.
 
#3 ·
If the 18 year old gives you money and you buy a handgun for him, that is a straw purchase.

If you buy a handgun and give it to an 18 year old as a gift, that is not a straw purchase, per the examples on the 4473.
 
#5 ·
A distinction is made between the purchase and any subsequent transfer you may choose to do. A "straw" purchase is one done on behalf of someone else.

As with the proverbial bottle o' scotch at the corner liquor store, the person who's truly "buying" the liquor shouldn't have a proxy do it instead. There's no reason not to, unless that purchaser is seeking to sidestep something (ie, is underage). In the case of firearms, that sort of purchase is made illegal, given the fears over guns getting into the hands of folks who should not have them.

You can certainly purchase a gun yourself, then give it as a gift, but then transfer laws come into play, not "straw" purchase laws. Your state will generally list all sorts of minimum requirements for someone you're giving it to.
 
#8 ·
There is no specific time limit, as time is not a determining factor in whether it is a straw purchase. The determing factor is your "intent" when purchasing the gun.

That said, time between purchase and subsequent transfer will almost always be used (by one side or the other) to shed light on "intent".

the second (and IMHO, more relevant) issue is the status of the person to whom you subsequently transfer the gun. If they can legally purchase the same from an FLL, then it is unlikely to be ruled a straw purchase. If they cannot legally purchase said gun, then I wouldn't want to be transfering it to them anyway.
 
#9 ·
My impression is that in general with respect to gun laws, more so than other stuff we do, the laws are very complex, ambiguous, and situationally sensitive. It is best to err on the side of caution. That is, if you are not sure something is O.K., don't do it.

So, with respect to straw purchases the thing is to be really sure that the person to whom the gun is being given can lawfully have it; and be sure that the subsequent transfer was either a true gift or a legal sale/transfer.
 
#11 ·
Straw purchase.



Different rules apply when purchasing from an FFL as opposed to a civilian. Federal rules govern what the FFL may and may not do. A civilian on the other hand is not required to run a background check, not usually required to sell to someone over 21 (depending on state) and is not required to maintain records.
If you buy a gun as a gift for someone, once it's left the dealers possession, it's your property. You may give it to whoever meets the legal requirements under state law.
I frequently buy at gun shows, I'm obviously over 19 (law in NM) and usually just show my drivers license as proof of residence. That's it.
If you're purchasing as a gift, then no money is changing hands between you and the person you're giving it to, so there is no straw purchase.
 
#12 ·
I would not buy a firearm for anyone else for any reason...period! Now a gift for a family member, or an in-law...well, it depends, but I would not jeopardize my right to buy/sell/own a firearm...not worth any risk.
If someone else cannot buy a firearm...there's a reason.:blink::yup:

Stay armed...be careful in your firearm purchases...stay safe!
 
#14 ·
Yes, and Im aware of private sales being legal here in WA, but I believe that would limit my selection, especially my selection of NIB handguns. Also, Im kind of unsure where I would go to find out about private sales, the major gun show in Washington is members only I believe. And guess what, you need to be 21 to become a member :tired:
 
#15 ·
I think the law is more along the lines of person A slipping person B $300 dollars on the street to buy person A a gun because he is a felon. Person B would have a clean record, and would be breaking the law buying a gun for person A who is a felon.
 
#18 ·
Seeing I work at one of the largest gun dealers on the East Coast, and also being a former FFL holder, I'd like to help out here.
First thing is, is this person, who is under 21 a Family RELATIVE of yours?
If so, you could POSSIBLY GIFT it out to, let's say, your son, or Brother/sister/wife, as you could also stipulate that the gun be in YOUR posession and used only when you're with that person, until they turn 21. If not, I'd stay away from the purchase/sale. Let them make the purchase on their own, when they turn 21.
If it's somebody whom you're friendly with, then it can be construded as a STRAW SALE.
Other question is, how would you like to be imprisoned for a term, based on what Wa State (or any other State) could convict you as making a Straw sale to somebody you're friends with. FWIW, Think about it before you move forward on it, as you may have a lot to lose.
 
#20 ·
I guess you know then what to put on your list for Santa ;-) (and I hope you were nice... Santa runs a tight background check system).
 
#23 ·
Having the item available for use is "possession", having the primary responsibility and/or purchasing the item is "owning". A fine line, but the thing of which charges are made.:wink:

Yes, by reading your excerpts, you're fine with the weapon in your home; the difficulty may arise if you are transporting it to & from the range, gunsmith, etc.. I'm not clear as to whether "real property" include your vehicle or not. Even that might not be a problem, but it would be officer-dependant. Stay safe!:wink:
 
#24 ·
Clarification of a straw purchase?
Same as buying alcohol for a minor isn't it? Illegal and punishable.
 
#25 ·
bal_g23,

If you are the one under 21, your mother or father can buy a firearm and gift it to you later. Hypothetically, if you were married to an older woman over 21, she could buy a gun and gift it to you as well.

Immediate family members can buy a firearm as a gift for X-mas, birthdays, graduations, blah blah blah--------for their husbands, wives, sisters, brothers, children---------

Your aunt can't buy you a gun, nor can your uncle, or nephews, etc------you get the point I'm sure. Immediate family members only apply here, and anyone else buying you a gun is a straw purchase--period.

One of your older friends [ 21 and over ] CAN'T buy a gun and then hand it off to you. That's a straw purchase. Even if they gift it to you, it's a straw purchase in the eyes of the BATF.

You can play semantics all you want with the who what when why and how, the result is the same, you are subjecting the person buying it and yourself to criminal charges if either or both are caught and I guarantee you, the BATF will make your life hell, cost you/your family or anyone who can financially support your atty fees hell as well.

DON"T try to circumvent the laws on this. DON'T play cute with the semantics and think you got away with something-------

Let your mother or father buy the gun, then depending on the states laws that pertain to you, have the adult/s who bought the gun learn whether you [ the underaged in this case ] can control/take possession or use that firearm.

18-20 years old, you can buy a rifle or shotgun. 21 and up, you can buy a handgun.

I deal with this every day I work the gun shop. The above is the way it's going to have to be. If the dealer has knowledge of anyone buying a handgun for you before you are 21 with the exception of your mother or father, he has to stop the sale, if he even suspects it was a straw purchase later, you could still face the possibility of his getting BATF involved. He'll do this as he is obligated to do so or lose his license, either at the time of purchase or afterwards.

The laws are very specific on this, DON'T try to circumvent them in any way. Don't be young dumb and full of _____, you get the idea I'm sure. If your mother or father is willing to buy a handgun for you as a gift, great. Thats the only way you are not looking at potential problems.

I'd ask why you haven't just asked you folks to buy a gun and gift it to you. Is there a reason one or both won't do that? That would be the clearest course of action. Persue that avenue or the best advice is to forget it till you turn 21.

At the shop I work at, the person buying the handgun has to also pay for it at the time of purchase. In other words, even a wife can't pay for the gun her husband has just bought. The BATF doesn't have a clear cut rule on this, but it could be considered a straw purchase by agents as well--here's why---

The wife could have a felony record and can't buy a gun. The husband fills out the 4473 federal form with the idea of handing it to her later. She's plucks down the credit card and tries to pay for it. In our jurisdiction, two agents have stated that they would consider that a straw purchase. So in our shop, the person who fills out the form also has to pay for the gun, there are NO exceptions to this in our shop.

We went through an extensive audit last summer that lasted three weeks. One of the agents saw the wife pay for a gun the husband had purchased [ he filled out the 4473 form ]. He watched the sale, followed them to the parking lot and took down the plate number, came back in the shop and told us that we would not do that again or lose the license, that they considered that a "flag" the transaction could be a straw purchase. When asked why, we were told---We don't verify marriage certificates, how do we know they were married.

Brownie
 
#32 ·
I'd ask why you haven't just asked you folks to buy a gun and gift it to you. Is there a reason one or both won't do that?
I think he was asking the question to see if that would be a straw purchase. I'd hate to ask my parents for a new gun for Christmas and have them go to jail for it, not because of any criminal record, but simply because I was not 21.

These laws are the kinds that push people toward the "What the heck, I'm probably breaking 10 or 15 laws I wasn't aware of today anyway, who cares?" type attitude.

It's a stupid law, similar to the laws about ammunition. A 19 year old can by .22 ammo for his .22 rifle, but not for his .22 pistol. It's not illegal for him to use the ammo in the pistol, just illegal for him to buy it for the pistol. He can buy 9mm, 40, 44, 45 ammo for a carbine rifle, but not for the pistol. Again, not illegal for him to use it in the pistol, just illegal to buy it for the pistol.

It's not just guns and ammunition that get you into messed up laws. It's all different subjects, I just happen to run into guns and ammunition ones more often I guess. Did you know that it is illegal for me to go to the pharmacy to pick up medication for my baby girl, unless she is with me? Well it may be legal to pick it up, pay for it, walk it out to the car, but once I get in the car with it I have broken the law. Even if she was with me, legally I must leave the medication outside the car until she is in the vehicle. To keep it completely legal, I should probably have her strapped into her car seat just to avoid the "appearance" of impropriety. That's because it is illegal to have prescription medication in your vehicle that is not in a prescription container with an occupant of the vehicle's name on the container. So if you have a 3 month old baby that is sick, you must now take them out in the bad weather to go to the drug store to get the medicine in order to avoid breaking the law.

Most people just go ahead and break that law, even if they know about it, because it's a stupid law. It's unlikely they will get stopped, so why worry. Then they get asked if ammo is for a handgun or rifle and they just answer rifle, even if it's for a pistol, just because they don't get asked for ID then. Who's gonna even know. Buckle up, it's the law but I'm only going around the corner real quick. No cops between here and there so it's just easier. Open beer container in the car, who'll know. If I don't speed or run a light, I'm not getting pulled over anyway, so why not break one more law nobody's gonna catch me at anyway? 60 MPH in a 55, why not. I'm just keeping up with traffic, even though I'm breaking the law.

Once you adopt the attitude that it's okay to break a law, it's easy to decide it's okay to break another. What use are laws that we don't enforce? Every unenforced/unenforceable law weakens every other law.
 
#26 ·
For all the FFL experts here who claim that only an immediate family member can give the gift of a handgun to a person 18-20 years of age according to Federal Law, would you please post the citation of that law? I'll bet you can't because you are absolutely WRONG.

Any person can gift a handgun to an 18 to 21 year old so long as that person is eligible to possess that gun according to that state's laws, and both parties are residents of the same state.

Case #1 - A person 18 to 20 years old works for me or is just a friend. We are not related. I want to give him a Christmas bonus consisting of a handgun and 1000 rounds of ammunition for that handgun. In Washington state, if we are both residents of Washington State, I can go to an FFL, buy that handgun legally and give it to my 18 year old friend, employee, family member, it doesn't matter (so long as that person is not a felon, domestic criminal, etc.)

Case #2 - I am an Oregon resident and I want to give my son, who is a Washington resident, the gift of a gun. I cannot do that, without an FFL, because we are resident's of a different state. If my son is 18 to 20 years old, and the gift is a handgun, there is no way that I can give it to him, because it has to go through an FFL.
 
#28 ·
Navy, I don't want this to go downhill, but, it seems like it's heading in somewhat that direction. I'm curious, you mentioned you'd "give" your 18 y/o friend/ employee a handgun? How would you get that gun out of your name? would you just "give" it to him? or would you write out a bill of sale to prove that it's no longer in your posession?
My point is, if you just "give" him the gun, it's still in your name, and you're still responsible for all legal, or illegal action taken with it by your friend. The second point is, that you've just made a handgun purchase and "given" it to an individual who is not 21 yrs old. that makes it a straw purchase, as buying for another person who is not able to make the purchase themselves.
 
#27 ·
Since someone who is 18 could legally own a handgun, wouldn't that be an exemption of a straw purchase? Or am I completely wrong?
Is there a legal solution?
ANYBODY (who is a resident of the same state you are, IE Washington State) can give you the handgun as a gift. It does NOT have to be a family member. Unless state law prohibits it, which Washington's does not.
 
#29 ·
I answered this in a pm to NavyLT as well. Let me be very clear and specific on this issue for everyone based on what the agents at the audit told us they consider a straw purchase.

NavyLT is technically correct in some respects. I can hand someone one of my guns out of my safe anytime and no money has to change hands, thereby making it a "gift" to that person.

What I can't do is walk into a dealers shop, with the intention of buying a firearm for another person unless that person is my son/daughter/mother/father [ immediate family member as a gift ]. That's a straw purchase according to the agents who were up our butts in the shop last year.

No, the federal law may not state such in black and white. No the federal laws may not be explicit and therefore technically you could construe the absence of the clarification in any way you wish to to suit your own needs/wants.

What is clear to our shop per the BATF agents who handled the audit is this----which may help in this discussion as an example that occurs all the time in our shop------------

Girlfriend and boyfriend walk into the shop. He's pointing out guns to her that he thinks she should have, she's handling the guns and decides she likes the smith J frame snubby for her purse. He states okay lets start the paper work and thinks he can fill out the form for her and give her the gun------wrong, he can't, thats a straw purchase for another person who is not an immediate family member.

The girlfriend has to fill out the paperwork herself and go through the background check. When he discovers we can't allow him to fill out the form, he then tells us, okay, the gun is for me. Now I can't sell him the gun either, as I KNOW it's a straw purchase for the girlfriend at that time.

Same exact scenario, but it's a husband and wife. He tells me it's a gift for her birthday. I ask to see their licenses, both names match with addresses the same. He can fill out the form and purchase the gun as it's NOT a straw purchase according to the agents. It's considered a gift to an immediate family member or spouse by the agents.

Here's the rub on this-----It's not whats written in black and white in the federal regs, it's what the agents have told us is not allowed, and that we'll abide by or suffer the potential of having the ffl license pulled by the BATF.

BATF takes straw purchases very seriously. They can make a case against you for buying the gun for someone else [ gift or not it's the intent at the time of sale that's important ], whether that person could legally own the gun or not. If the dealer is smart and even thinks that's the case, he won't sell you the gun to begin with. It's his license that's in jeopardy at that time.

Say two males walk in the shop [ and this has happened many times in our shop ] and male 1 points out a gun to male 2. They have a conversation under their breath and are looking at the sales rep. It appears to the sales rep something isn't quite right in the scenario, and it might be that male 1 is picking out a gun for himself and having male 2 try to purchase it.

That sale is not going to happen in the shop I work at. I have an indication that male 1 wanted that gun and male 2 was there to buy it for him. I don't have to prove that, I just have to believe that is a possibility based on the totality of the circumstances I observed.

Male 2 then brings the gun to the counter and says he wants to buy it. I tell him I can't sell him the gun as I believe he is buying it for male 1. He tells me he's going to give it to male 1 as a present. It's a no sale, that's a straw purchase.

Now, lets look at what NavyLT is saying. He goes into a shop and buys a gun. He can do anything he wants with it after he leaves the store. That's not our business nor are we aware he is buying the gun to gift it to someone who isn't an immediate family member. We aren't aware of his "intent" to give it to another person at the time of sale.

Same scenario, but NavyLT and his employee walk in together and the kid picks out the gun he wants and NavyLT says he'll fill out the 4473 and buy it-------Nope, that's not going to happen as the agent for the ffl holder sees it's a straw purchase and can't sell it to him legally.

Hope that helps

Brownie
 
#31 ·
Brownie,

The BATF agent who told you this is absolutely full of crap. I will email the BATF when I go to work tomorrow and post my email and their reply here. In fact, I may already have one stored in my email at work, because I have already asked them this question. If I had an 18 year old girlfriend, I absolutely could take her to an FFL, TELL the FFL that I am buying her a gift and she will pick the gun out, let her pick out the gun she wanted, fill out the paperwork right then and there, in Washington state show my WA CPL, pay the dealer MY money, the dealer walks the gun out of the store, hands it to me, and I hand it to her. Absolutely legal. I would highly suggest that you address this issue with the BATF in writing, as I will do and send to you. In fact, if you PM me with your email address I will CC you one my email. I can do this because Washington State requires no paperwork for a gift or private sale of a handgun.
 
#33 ·
The BATF agent who told you this is absolutely full of crap.

And he may very well be, I don't doubt he may be----but---- the field agents are the people with the power to lock the doors of the ffl holder for what they consider violations, whether they are or not violations per their home office.

I've had three agents tell us three different ways of filling out the 4473, some will accept no abbreviations on the form, others say it's okay, while a third told us maybe. The agents don't necessarily know the rules of their own agency, and in fact neither do the agents in the home offices. They can't cite chapter and verse, and most make it up as they go along, ------- just like the IRS offices when you call for clarification on some legal matter.

We'll work within the confines of the agents requests/demands who visit and have control over the shop, how other agents in other offices deal with specific issues is their business in their jurisdiction.

If you are buying the gun for someone else not an immediate family member, it's a straw purchase at the time of sale. If the ffl knows that is the case, it's a no sale in our shop based on the agents that control that shop. Whether that is right or wrong, it is what it is, whether that is right or wrong legally in the federal statutes.

I know the boss isn't going to go calling the field office and complain he doesn't agree with the field agent any tome soon. I also know it's easier for the purchaser to yell foul, thats not the law, they can't do that, they can't whatever, but the purchaser [ you ] doesn't hold the ffl and the ffl is responsible to the bureau's agents whims, right or wrong.

It is what it is, and in our shop, if you are not an immediate family member you aren't buying a gun for a friend if we know that to be the case as the bureau's agents have stated we will not, and thats the way it's going to stay.

Brownie
 
#34 ·
ok what I really want to know. In WA state, where there is no handgun registration, and you can be 18 and own a handgun, I can buy an old pistol from my cousin when im over 18 but not 21. Correct?
 
#39 ·
Yes. You can buy a handgun from ANY private party at the age of 18 or over in Washington State. It is also true that WA state has no handgun registration, and that no records of the sale are required.

While Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 922 (b) prohibits transfer by a licensed dealer further down in section (x) an exception is made to include family, farming, ranching and some other instances. This is also referenced in the ATF FAQs question B14 quoted here.



Now while this does address federal law the individual states may have other restrictions as well.

msgt/ret,
What you have posted applies to persons UNDER the age of 18, not persons aged 18 to 20.
 
#35 ·
As I understand it, you can buy from a private party [ it doesn't have to be an "old gun" ], it's the ffl licensed dealer that can't sell you a handgun until you are 21.

It's the same here in Az., at 18 and you can own a handgun, but you can't buy one from an ffl dealer till you're 21. You can buy a shotgun or rifle here at 18 from a dealer, but must wait till you are 21 to buy a pistol from a dealer.

If you have any questions as to the legality in your own state, call the secretary of states office [ usually situated in the capital city of the respective state ].

Ask for the pertinent state division covering firearms, you'll be given the number or connected through them at that time. You could also just call a dealer in your state, they should be able to answer the question as well if they are up to speed on the laws there.

Brownie
 
#37 ·
dont you guys think it would be even safer if 18 year olds could buy from FFLs rather than private sales as FFLs require a more in depth background check? This doesnt make much sense to me.
 
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