Gift of handgun to 18 year old non-relative - Page 2

Gift of handgun to 18 year old non-relative

This is a discussion on Gift of handgun to 18 year old non-relative within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; OK.... this will only hold so much water, but, I just got off the phone with a gun dealer in washington state. I asked the ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array artz's Avatar
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    OK.... this will only hold so much water, but, I just got off the phone with a gun dealer in washington state. I asked the same question that you asked here LT.
    He said that it is federal law that you can not transfer a handgun (even as a gift) to a person who is not of legal age (21).
    Now...if this person is in your household and you are in control of the gun...thats a different story (18 years of age).
    This is just what I was told.
    " Refuse to be a victim, make sure there is a round chambered ! "

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  2. #17
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    It is not a straw purchase, because I am, in fact, the actual purchaser of the firearm. I am not purchasing it with someone else's money nor with the intention of receiving someone else's money for it. I am buying with the intention of giving it as a gift,

    See that bolded text?

    Intent?-- You are signing the form stating you are the actual purchaser of the firearm. If your real intent is to then hand it to someone who can't buy one legally, it's a straw purchase.

    Lets look at this from a different viewpoint, one the BATF will likely look at when they decide what a straw purchase is or not no matter what the law says:

    Gangbanger #1 [ GB1 ] and gangbanger #2 [ GB2 ] walk into a gun shop. GB1 buys a gun with the intent to give it to GB2 when they walk outside, and in fact does so.

    GB1 signs the 4473 and has answered question one on the form that he's the actual purchaser of the firearm [ in fact he does purchase it with his money and take possession of it so he is the actual purchaser physically ].

    They get stopped by the police down the road upon leaving the shop for some reason. Searched, the officer finds GB2 in possession of a firearm which he is not legally able to purchase. He runs the serial number, it's not on the hot sheet. He asks where he got the gun to which he replies GB1 gave it to me after he bought it.

    GB1 is now guilty of a straw purchase, as the intent has been established he handed the gun over to GB2 upon leaving the shop. BATF is going to get involved, and likely charge GB1 with a federal felony crime.

    Their defense in court is, "but your honor, I bought it as a gift for GB2 as he wasn't of age to buy it himself" No money changed hands, it was a gift"

    BATF charges GB1 with a straw purchase. It costs GB1 20,000 dollars to represent himself against federal charges. He wins the court case by some miracle---he's still out 20K in legal fees.

    Or----- he loses, the charges are upheld on his "intent" at the time of purchase to immediately give the gun to GB2 and his lying on a federal form which is a felony. He's out 20K and does time.

    The defense atty says "but your honor, GB1 has a letter from the local BATF office stating he can "gift" a gun to anyone, not just an immediate family member. The judge doesn't care what a local office stated, the Washington, DC agents have upheld that as a straw purchase in their estimation and the decision is upheld.

    Who's right and who's wrong in this scenario? ---------

    GB1 is wrong, his "intent" was not to purchase the gun for himself but for another who couldn't legally buy the gun to begin with. Intent at the time of purchase is key in this situation. Relying on some local field office's opinion to purchase for another who can't legally buy for themselves is risky business.

    Brownie
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    Why not just buy one on a private sale (not that I'd sell to anyone under 21 anyway)?
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

  4. #19
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    Lets say NavyLT is correct- bear with me--

    Any group of gang bangers who can't buy firearms gets some shmuck who doesn't have a criminal record to go buy them guns at a shop with their money.

    Shmuck fills out the 4473 that he's the actual purchaser of the firearms [ he buys several ], passes the background check and leaves with the guns. Hands them off to the bangers later on that day.

    Bangers get caught with the one or more of the guns on the streets. They check serial numbers, guns aren't hot. The BATF checks the serial numbers and finds the shop that sold the guns.

    They visit the shop and get the ffl's books out, find out shmuck bought em a few days ago. They visit shmuck and want to know where the guns are he bought.

    His defense is going to be he "gifted" them to the bangers, they didn't pay him for the guns [ which could never be proven in the affirmative or negative to begin with ] so everything is perfectly legal and he's not broken any laws?

    Don't think so------

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  5. #20
    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Girlfriend loves the idea. I can't give her the money with the express reason for her to buy a gun with, because then she would be buying the gun on my behalf which would be a straw purchase.
    Actually, I think this is not a straw purchase, because the issue isn't where the money came from, the issue is where the gun goes and who finally "owns" it.

    If you want to give your g/f the money to buy a gun. She then goes and buys the gun, for herself to keep and own - that's legal. She filled out the forms saying she was the buyer and was not buying for someone else - all true, all legal.

    That being true, if it is legal for her to buy a gun and give it to her son, then your giving her the money to do that shouldn't change anything, because again, you are not the recipient of the gun.

    If there ios any liability for a straw purchase, it would be on the g/f-son. Not you.
    Last edited by tflhndn; October 23rd, 2008 at 09:20 PM. Reason: Remove the hostile tone of my first post - (sorry)

  6. #21
    Member Array Heimer's Avatar
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    How about a nice rifle instead?
    I work to buy guns. Not really, but sometimes it feels that way..

  7. #22
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    Here is the gist of the probem\

    If he is not legal to buy the handgun in his state on his own from an FFL and you buy it for him.

    It is now a straw purchase.

    Gift or not.


    steve

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    Why can't Mom buy it and let him borrow it to go target shooting? Is he planning on carrying it around?
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

  9. #24
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by automatic slim View Post
    Actually there is also the issue of state law. In my state, NM, you only have to be 19 to possess a handgun, although if you are under the supervision of a parent or guardian, you can be any age. I'm not sure about OK, but I think in WA
    you need to be 21 just to possess under state law.
    In both OK and WA the age limit for handgun possession is 18.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by artz View Post
    OK.... this will only hold so much water, but, I just got off the phone with a gun dealer in washington state. I asked the same question that you asked here LT.
    He said that it is federal law that you can not transfer a handgun (even as a gift) to a person who is not of legal age (21).
    Now...if this person is in your household and you are in control of the gun...thats a different story (18 years of age).
    This is just what I was told.
    Wrong. It is against the Federal Law for an FFL to transfer a handgun to a person under the age of 21 notice the word Licensed:
    18 USC 922:
    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
    manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
    deliver--

    (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee
    knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years
    of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun
    or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual
    who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less
    than twenty-one years of age;

    If you read further down in the Federal Law you will find the Federal Law that applies to you and me "any person":
    18 USC 922
    (x)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or
    otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has
    reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile--
    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to
    knowingly possess--
    (A) a handgun; or
    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

    (5) For purposes of this subsection, the term ``juvenile'' means a
    person who is less than 18 years of age.

  11. #26
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    It is not a straw purchase, because I am, in fact, the actual purchaser of the firearm. I am not purchasing it with someone else's money nor with the intention of receiving someone else's money for it. I am buying with the intention of giving it as a gift,

    See that bolded text?

    Intent?-- You are signing the form stating you are the actual purchaser of the firearm. If your real intent is to then hand it to someone who can't buy one legally, it's a straw purchase.
    It is perfectly legal to purchase a firearm, and to state on the 4473 that you are the purchaser of the firearm, with the intention of giving that firearm as a gift to someone.

    I would not be giving that firearm to anyone illegal to purchase that firearm. They are legal to purchase that firearm. However, they are only allowed to purchase that firearm, according to both Washington state and Federal laws, from private individuals.

    Let's say, for sake of argument, that I did purchase a handgun, knowing that I was going to gift it to a person who I knew was inelible to receive that handgun. I still, in fact, would not be guilty of a straw purchase. I am the actual purchaser of the firearm, with my own money, with my own identification. Then I turn around and gift that firearm to an ineligible person. I cannot be prosecuted under "straw purchase", however, I can and most likely will be prosecuted under transferring a firearm to an illegible person, and I still going to jail.

  12. #27
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by artz View Post
    OK.... this will only hold so much water, but, I just got off the phone with a gun dealer in washington state. I asked the same question that you asked here LT.
    He said that it is federal law that you can not transfer a handgun (even as a gift) to a person who is not of legal age (21).
    Now...if this person is in your household and you are in control of the gun...thats a different story (18 years of age).
    This is just what I was told.
    It is also not against Washington State law either:
    RCW 9.41.040
    Unlawful possession of firearms Ownership, possession by certain persons Penalties.
    (2)(a) A person, whether an adult or juvenile, is guilty of the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm in the second degree, if the person does not qualify under subsection (1) of this section for the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm in the first degree and the person owns, has in his or her possession, or has in his or her control any firearm:
    (iii) If the person is under eighteen years of age, except as provided in RCW 9.41.042; and/or

    and

    RCW 9.41.240
    Possession of pistol by person from eighteen to twenty-one.

    Unless an exception under RCW 9.41.042, 9.41.050, or 9.41.060 applies, a person at least eighteen years of age, but less than twenty-one years of age, may possess a pistol only:

    (1) In the person's place of abode;

    (2) At the person's fixed place of business; or

    (3) On real property under his or her control.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Lets say NavyLT is correct- bear with me--

    Any group of gang bangers who can't buy firearms gets some shmuck who doesn't have a criminal record to go buy them guns at a shop with their money.

    Shmuck fills out the 4473 that he's the actual purchaser of the firearms [ he buys several ], passes the background check and leaves with the guns. Hands them off to the bangers later on that day.

    Bangers get caught with the one or more of the guns on the streets. They check serial numbers, guns aren't hot. The BATF checks the serial numbers and finds the shop that sold the guns.

    They visit the shop and get the ffl's books out, find out shmuck bought em a few days ago. They visit shmuck and want to know where the guns are he bought.

    His defense is going to be he "gifted" them to the bangers, they didn't pay him for the guns [ which could never be proven in the affirmative or negative to begin with ] so everything is perfectly legal and he's not broken any laws?
    Don't think so------

    Brownie
    It's a straw purchase because you stated about WITH THEIR MONEY.

    Even if I truly gifted the guns to them, and I knew they were gangbangers or had reasonable cause to believe they were, I would have no defense, I would be guilty of transferring firearms to ineligible persons.

    And come on... there is a big difference between me gifting a gun to someone I know and a stranger coming up and asking me on the street if I will gift a gun to them.

  13. #28
    Member Array stolivar's Avatar
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    Sorry still not true.

    The gist of the thing is . Is he legally able to buy the gun himself from the FFL.

    No he is not. therefore it is a straw purchase for you to gift it to him the way you want to do it.

    Even here in missouri you can buy a own a gun if you are 18 and it is from an individual or as a gift from someone. But you still can not buy it from a FFL until you are 21. The scenario you are stating is a straw purchase.

    I have an FFL and I would not do it. I asked a couple of others and they said they would not do it either.

    From your own quote "I would be guilty of transferring firearms to ineligible persons."


    steve

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolivar View Post
    The gist of the thing is . Is he legally able to buy the gun himself from the FFL.

    No he is not. therefore it is a straw purchase for you to gift it to him the way you want to do it.

    Even here in missouri you can buy a own a gun if you are 18 and it is from an individual or as a gift from someone. But you still can not buy it from a FFL until you are 21. The scenario you are stating is a straw purchase.

    I have an FFL and I would not do it. I asked a couple of others and they said they would not do it either.

    From your own quote "I would be guilty of transferring firearms to ineligible persons."

    steve
    That quote that I made was in reference to giving the gun to gangbangers to use in a crime. It was not made in reference to giving it to an 18 year old who is illegible to purchase a handgun from a private party and to possess that handgun.

    Since, you as an FFL would not sell to me for the purpose of giving a gift, what if I brought my wife into the store, as a military dependent with an out of state driver's license. Would you let me buy a gun as a gift for her, that she picked out? She can't buy it from you because she cannot prove to you she is a resident, even though she is because she lives with me. I can prove I am a resident by way of Military ID and Military Orders.

  15. #30
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Found the answer!

    Ok. I found the answer to my question in an ATF publication. It is on page 165 of the latest Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, located here:
    ATF Online - ATF P 5300.4 - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000 (9/05)

    Notice the bolded part in the quotation. It says plainly, with the INTENT of making a gift of the firearm to another PERSON. Notice it says plainly INTENT and it says plainly PERSON. It does NOT say, imply, or restrict such gift to a relative.

    An example of an illegal straw purchase
    is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
    Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
    Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
    money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
    out Form 4473, he violates the law by
    falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
    of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
    the law because he has unlawfully aided
    and abetted or caused the making of
    false statements on the form.

    Where a person purchases a firearm
    with the intent of making a gift of the
    firearm to another person, the person
    making the purchase is indeed the true
    purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
    in these instances.
    In the above example,
    if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
    with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
    as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
    lawfully have completed Form 4473.
    The use of gift certificates would also
    not fall within the category of straw purchases.
    The person redeeming the gift
    certificate would be the actual purchaser
    of the firearm and would be properly
    reflected as such in the dealer's records.
    Last edited by NavyLT; October 24th, 2008 at 09:26 AM.

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