Gift of handgun to 18 year old non-relative

This is a discussion on Gift of handgun to 18 year old non-relative within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Good luck on your choice. Let us know what state, ATF, and UCMJ dictates, and if you follow thru on your purchase for the kid....

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Thread: Gift of handgun to 18 year old non-relative

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array artz's Avatar
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    Good luck on your choice. Let us know what state, ATF, and UCMJ dictates, and if you follow thru on your purchase for the kid.
    " Refuse to be a victim, make sure there is a round chambered ! "

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  3. #32
    Member Array Arisin Wind's Avatar
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    When my son was returning from Afghanistan I went to my local gunshop and bought him a 1911A1 as a gift. the owner helped me pick out the gun knowing it was a gift for my son.
    Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help. psalm22:11

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Actually, if he were 21 and were to buy the gun from an FFL with my money, then a straw purchase would occur, because I gave him the money with the express purpose of using it to buy a gun.
    Completely false. Not a straw purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    I can't give her the money with the express reason for her to buy a gun with, because then she would be buying the gun on my behalf which would be a straw purchase.
    False. You give her money. Go buy a gun. Not a straw purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by stolivar View Post
    If he is not legal to buy the handgun in his state on his own from an FFL and you buy it for him.

    It is now a straw purchase.

    Gift or not.


    steve
    Completely false. Gifts are not a straw purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by stolivar View Post
    The gist of the thing is . Is he legally able to buy the gun himself from the FFL.

    No he is not. therefore it is a straw purchase for you to gift it to him the way you want to do it.
    False.

    This is not a straw purchase. It is a gift. There are no restrictions as whom you can buy a gift for, as long as you have reasonable knowledge they are not a criminal and at least the age of handgun possession in your state. They do not have to be a blood relative.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  5. #34
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    It is perfectly legal to purchase a firearm, and to state on the 4473 that you are the purchaser of the firearm, with the intention of giving that firearm as a gift to someone.

    If the ffl holder doesn't know your "intent" to gift it to someone later [ could be as soon as you walk out or days/months/years later ] he is not breaking the law by allowing the sale of the firearm and is not responsible for your actions subsequent to the purchase. He had no knowledge of the customers "intent" during or after the sale.

    I think we can all agree that eventually, many guns bought from an ffl will be sold privately sometime later. If that were not the case, guns would be sold/ttraded back to an ffl holder the majority of the time, and we know that's not happening.

    That quote that I made was in reference to giving the gun to gangbangers to use in a crime.

    I didn't state in the example that the gangbangers were criminals, just that they couldn't purchase the guns themselves [ that could have been due to their being underage ]. The example was to demonstrate that if anyone can buy a handgun and gift it to another, one gangbanger over 21 could buy several handguns and pass them around to the "bros" who aren't 21 citing "hey, they were gifts for my bros", it's not illegal.

    Where the problem seems to be here is that word "intent" again. No one can prove if money changed hands before or after a sale, including the agents when one buys a gun for another. The agents can surmise that if an immediate relative has purchased a handgun as a gift, that in all probability that is actually the case.

    The agents can't know when money changes hands and when it doesn't which is one indication of a straw purchase. As they can't determine or control this, they decide to restrict the dealer from selling to someone buying the gun for someone else unless it's an immediate relative.

    It may not be written in the federal statutes anywhere specifically, but that is the way it is going to be per the field agents at the shop during the audit. If they become aware of a dealer knowingly selling a firearm to a customer whose "intent" is known to the dealer as giving it to another other than an immediate family member, the ffl will be subject to official reprimand, fines, or worse.

    In the final analysis, it's not worth the trouble to the ffl holder [ dealer ] to not comply with the field agents. In fact, I agree with the field agents summation and clarification on this subject of what they would consider a straw purchase. There is no way to show "intent" or whether money will later or had previously changed hands between the "gifter" and the "gift recipient".

    It is reasonable to believe a mom or dad would buy a gun for their offspring. It's reasonable that a husband or wife would buy a gun for their spouse.

    It's not unreasonable to question someone buying a gun for another person that doesn't fall into one of the categories above and it's also reasonable to believe that we would see abuses of that "gifting" criteria if not so restricted.

    Brownie
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  6. #35
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think you are correct on all points, Tubby. Now that I think about it, if I do give someone money to buy a gun with, it is not a straw purchase so long as they are NOT giving that gun to me in return.

  7. #36
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    Yeah, I think you are correct on all points, Tubby. Now that I think about it, if I do give someone money to buy a gun with, it is not a straw purchase so long as they are NOT giving that gun to me in return.

    I concur

    Brownie
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  8. #37
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by artz View Post
    OK.... this will only hold so much water, but, I just got off the phone with a gun dealer in washington state. I asked the same question that you asked here LT.
    He said that it is federal law that you can not transfer a handgun (even as a gift) to a person who is not of legal age (21).
    Now...if this person is in your household and you are in control of the gun...thats a different story (18 years of age).
    This is just what I was told.
    Artz. This is EXACTLY what I meant in the other thread, regarding a straw purchase.
    I specifically mentioned was the gun sale, intended for a Family relative. A cousin, neice, nephew, in-law etc would not cut the mustard in the BATF's eyes, but to a SON, DAUGHTER, WIFE, given as a GIFT, it would be ok., as long as the gun was under YOUR control until they turned 21
    I also worked in a Gunshop in Seattle Wa in 1998-99 (Warshall's was on the corner of First and Madison) and had a couple of such type "sales" attempted. The Store just wouldn't risk losing their FFL, even if it was a dad coming in to buy a handgun, and then "gifting" it out to his Son or daughter, who was under 21. The Store looked at the sale as a Straw purchase, and refused to move forward on the 4473. At KTP in Manie, (as well as when I had my FFL) if we suspect a possible straw purchase, in any way, everything stops, and I, at that point, have the duty, and legal right to refuse the sale to the Customer.
    In the short of it, it's best to wait til you're 21 years old, make the purchase yourself, and therefore not place anybody else in legal stuff.
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  9. #38
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    I would avoid all if's, and's, or but's...I would just give a monetary gift...PERIOD.

    Why even consider the possibility of a problem with a firearm purchase, transfer, or some other misinterpretation?

    Do you trust this friend and her son?
    Has he wanted to purchase a weapon if he had the money?
    Is it OK with the mom?

    Pretty simple...create the cash gift and let him decide on which weapon.

    I would not play 'guessing games' with the BATFE...they are not your friends.

    Stay armed...keep it simple...stay safe!
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  10. #39
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLASS3NH View Post
    I specifically mentioned was the gun sale, intended for a Family relative. A cousin, neice, nephew, in-law etc would not cut the mustard in the BATF's eyes, but to a SON, DAUGHTER, WIFE, given as a GIFT, it would be ok., as long as the gun was under YOUR control until they turned 21
    This is again false. There is no federal law stating the person receiving the gift has to be an immediate family member or blood relative. None.

    The Store just wouldn't risk losing their FFL, even if it was a dad coming in to buy a handgun, and then "gifting" it out to his Son or daughter, who was under 21. The Store looked at the sale as a Straw purchase, and refused to move forward on the 4473.
    As a business decision, they have the right to do that.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  11. #40
    Senior Member Array walvord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I would avoid all if's, and's, or but's...I would just give a monetary gift...PERIOD.

    Why even consider the possibility of a problem with a firearm purchase, transfer, or some other misinterpretation?

    Do you trust this friend and her son?
    Has he wanted to purchase a weapon if he had the money?
    Is it OK with the mom?

    Pretty simple...create the cash gift and let him decide on which weapon.

    I would not play 'guessing games' with the BATFE...they are not your friends.

    Stay armed...keep it simple...stay safe!

    This is very wise counsel.
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  12. #41
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    This is again false. There is no federal law stating the person receiving the gift has to be an immediate family member or blood relative

    I agree,

    As a business decision, they have the right to do that.

    Thats what I've been saying here.

    Brownie
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  13. #42
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    The final score...

    Here's what I think we can all agree upon to make this thing final:
    Nowhere in the Federal Law does it state that I cannot buy a handgun as a gift for anyone. Any talk about only for immediate family is pure fiction, as far as the written law states. In fact, the FFL Guide to Regulations specifically states, in writing, from the ATF themselves, that a purchase of a firearm with the INTENT to make that firearm a gift to ANY OTHER PERSON is not a straw purchase. So according to the law and regulation and written interpretation of that regulation, my purchase would be a legal one.

    There are BATF agents out there who will put an "immediate family" limitation on gift purchases, which has no basis in law, therefore, if taken to a court of law, it would appear as if their statement would be unenforceable.

    There are FFL dealers who will only go as far as their local ATF field agent will let them, even if they have a manual written by the ATF that tells them otherwise. They do not wish to risk any part of their livelihood in order to prove that these field agents are spouting fiction. And that is certainly, completely within their rights to do so.

    Unfortunately, when we allow our local LEOs to make up their own laws, and enforce their opinions rather than written law, we will find ourselves more and more oppressed, and I think we can agree that is exactly where we are finding ourselves in America today. I too am not without blame. I accepted a $175 fine for a traffic violation that I absolutely was not guilty of, because to appeal it would have cost me over $300 and it just wasn't worth it.

    To me, anyway, I think that about sums it up. Thank you all for such a lively discussion.

  14. #43
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    The 4473 specifically gives the example of a gift and does clarify that it is not a straw purchase.

    You are good.
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

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  15. #44
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agave View Post
    The 4473 specifically gives the example of a gift and does clarify that it is not a straw purchase.

    You are good.
    Not according to some BATF agents and the FFLs who won't stand up to them. But, you are correct according to the law and BATF's own written regulations and manuals I am good to go.

  16. #45
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    Not according to some BATF agents and the FFLs who won't stand up to them

    Exactly.

    When your business is regulated by an agency such as this one, with all it's incumbent power to create an environment of fear for losing your means of income if you don't comply with them, you have two choices.

    1. Comply and stay in business

    2. Not comply, fight them for what you believe is the letter of the law as it's written and suffer another audit that can find numerous instances of non compliance in some manner as well as clerical mistakes on the 4473's which can shut you down.

    The field agent/s can be your friend and you can work with them as much as possible, or they can be your worst nightmare as many ffl's have found out the hard way and are now out of business for any number of reasons.

    If they find one mistake on an audit, they can give you a warning, if they come back the following year and find just one more mistake in any paperwork or recordings of firearms to or from the shop, they can fine you heavily and they make you sign off that you understand you made mistakes and you won't make them again, if they come back and find one more similar problem, they can shut you down for continued non compliance of something as simple as a clerical mistake which you agreed to not make again or suffer loss of your license.

    Now, if you made your living on this side of the fence, you'd understand a little better I'm sure. When one lives on the other side of that fence and hasn't suffered through 3 weeks of an audit, twice [ and is still in business selling guns to the public providing that service ], it's easy to throw the "won't stand up to them" card around and have a holier than thou attitude [ not that I think you are necesaarily that way NavyLT here in this thread ].

    I'm aware of three shops, one in Wash or Oregon state that thumbed their noses at the BATF and did what they thought was correct against numerous warnings to cease and desist that activity. They eventually suffered over a milliion dollars in fines and they were shut down permanently. Now I'm sure they still thumb their noses at the agents, but they aren't selling guns anymore, and their customers have to find another shop to buy from.

    Who won that battle of "standing up to them" in this case? Not the gun store ffl owner [ he's broke from fines and atty fees ], certainly not the customers who relied on their services either.

    Who won this one? The BATF did, and they'll be hard pressed to lose when an appointed federal judge is determining the cases merits in a federal court. Very RARELY does a federal govt agency lose in their own courts against a citizen. Would you have the gun stores take the BATF to task creating an environment of hostility with the agency at every turn at a considerable expense, then lose to a federal judges ruling, and be further subjected to what amounts to continued harassment and fines until you are out of business or would you rather have that gun store stay open so you have a place to buy your firearms.

    Something like 70% of ffl's have been put out of business for various reasons of non compliance since the Clinton administration. It's hard enough to find a local shop compared to the pre Clinton administrations attacks on ffl's. What we don't need is more ffl's out of business. Will customers step up and pay their legal fees to stand up to them? No, the ffl is on his own. If he's on his own without support from the general public, he's going to make sure he complies as best he can and hope he's not singled out for any reason.

    If that doesn't make sense to others, there's nothing more that can be said. The BATF is known for abuses, and in fact there is national legislation in the works to stop that abuse at the present time.

    Brownie
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