Gift of handgun to 18 year old non-relative - Page 5

Gift of handgun to 18 year old non-relative

This is a discussion on Gift of handgun to 18 year old non-relative within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Is there any reason why any person that is contemplating doing this cannot make a phone call to their local home state ATF office and ...

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Thread: Gift of handgun to 18 year old non-relative

  1. #61
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    Is there any reason why any person that is contemplating doing this cannot make a phone call to their local home state ATF office and ask intelligent, pertinent, truthful questions about "gifting a firearm" while also simultaneously documenting the Month, Day, Date, Exact Time and the full name of the ATF agent that they spoke with before attempting such an endeavor? And/or requesting an official response in writing on letterhead.

    It would seem to me that doing that would go a mighty long way toward solving any possible problems or legal repercussions.
    That is what I would do. Just FYI.


  2. #62
    Member Array stolivar's Avatar
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    By now

    Most of us don't give a dog crap. If you can find a FFL that will do it fine. But you are going to have a hard time doing so. Even the agent told you not to do it the way you want to. (it looks funny)

    We don't care anymore. We gave you plenty of suggestions on how to do it without the hassle.

    You just want to argue the point. The agents interpretations don't mean a thing. Same way with an IRS interpretation.

    Only case law counts.

    If it looks funny on the transaction I will not do it, and probably not very many other FFL's will do it either. None of my other FFL dealers I know will do it under the scenario that you offered. They all said the same thing. (looks like a straw purchase.) Just take the letter you got from the AFT and give it to the Dealer and see if he will still do it for ya.... If not.... well so be it.

    Good luck with it anyway it goes.


    steve

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I just don't understand why so many people are giving the OP crap for performing a LAWFUL action.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  4. #64
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    Because it's a gray area, and he persists on harping on it. If he's certain, just do it. Otherwise, he's coming across as argumentative. I wouldn't risk my FFL just because he has someone's interpretation. If the kid needs a gun, do it if you can find an FFL that agrees. If not, buy one and loan it to the kid when he wants to go shooting. Better yet, let the kid's actual relative, his mother, do the deal.
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

  5. #65
    Member Array stolivar's Avatar
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    I think I just said what husker did

    enough said


    steve

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Husker View Post
    Better yet, let the kid's actual relative, his mother, do the deal.
    Which has no bearing on anything.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  7. #67
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    I just don't understand why so many people are giving the OP crap for performing a LAWFUL action.

    Please explain who has determined it's a lawful act by citing case law of same?

    I haven't seen any documentation of case law where the courts have made a decision on this matter put forth by anyone, including the relevant bureau's agents anywhere.

    It's your opinion it's a lawful act, it's Navy's opinion it's a lawful act, yet the two agents only gave their opinions when asked and didn't cite case law and it's relevant case number [ which they would not be able to do as there is no case law that's determined it's a lawful act.

    Is there any reason why any person that is contemplating doing this cannot make a phone call to their local home state ATF office and ask intelligent, pertinent, truthful questions about "gifting a firearm" while also simultaneously documenting the Month, Day, Date, Exact Time and the full name of the ATF agent that they spoke with before attempting such an endeavor?

    No, there's no reason I can think of why anyone can't make the call, however, even with the "verbal" documentation you suggest, at any time in the future you will not be able to hold that agents opinion up as a defense if you are later adjudicated guilty of an unlawful act. Many people have paid fines and penalties for some IRS agents erroneous opinion, and when they've explained that they were told they could do something or had to do something a certain way and did it, were held liable for the mistake anyway as you can't prove a phone call took place or what was said.

    And/or requesting an official response in writing on letterhead.

    Bingo, with a letter clearly stating a local agencies position on this or any other specific matter, you would have grounds to take them to task should you be charged later with a violation which the letter clearly elucidated in the opposite.

    You will, of course, still spend thousands of dollars to prove your case against the government, and no, they will not reimburse you for those expenses, you'll be lucky to just have the agency let you off the hook on the charges.

    Has anyone here ever personally sued a US Govt agency through an atty. for negligence or a wrongful desision which harmed them or a relative?

    I have, back in 1981, took 5 years to get to court, 2 full months of court testimony and we won at the district level [ 1st Federal District Court of Boston ], and then the decision was overturned in Washington, DC at the appellate level two years later and the three appellate justices assigned the appeal by the govt. basically stated "too bad", go away.

    Anyone heard of "The perfect Storm"?

    Brownie
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    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  8. #68
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    I spent 20 years with an LEO agency. No way in the world would I trust ANYTHING you could get over the phone. These folks aren't attorneys or judges. They are phone clerks who have been given a manual that they may or may not have read. And if they did read it, most likely it's outdated. Even the folks on the street may not give you accurate information. When in doubt, go the safe route!
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

  9. #69
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    Just a friendly FYI that when you call the ATF you are not getting a phone clerk. You are getting an ATF agent on the phone.
    They are required to spend a certain portion of their time doing general phone duty.
    I know this for a fact.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  10. #70
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    And when you call Phoenix PD, there is a very good chance you are getting a sworn officer either on desk or light duty. They still are not likely to know the info about this subject, or most any other detailed fact that is not drilled into their heads. But they still present their opinions, and citizens take their word for gospel. My point is, take what you hear with a grain of salt. Do your research, and take your chances. If there is an easy way around your issue, take advantage of it.
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post

    Please explain who has determined it's a lawful act by citing case law of same?
    Probably isn't any. Tried a search on the DOJ and ATF website, as well as FindLaw and nothing came up.

    I haven't seen any documentation of case law where the courts have made a decision on this matter put forth by anyone, including the relevant bureau's agents anywhere.
    I haven't seen any documentation to the contrary.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  12. #72
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    I haven't seen any documentation to the contrary.

    Hence the idea that everyone only has an opinion on this issue.

    As opinions are worth exactly what you pay for them, I find it hard to understand how you can then make a statement of fact from your opinion that:

    I just don't understand why so many people are giving the OP crap for performing a LAWFUL action.

    That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Please don't suggest statements as facts when it;s only an opinion not backed by case law.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  13. #73
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    The action is in plain English legal according to the statute. I cannot find case law to the contrary. It seems you have a problem accepting written law as fact.

    The lawful action discussed is not opinion it is fact. If you cannot stomach that, it's not my problem.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    The action is in plain English legal according to the statute. I cannot find case law to the contrary. It seems you have a problem accepting written law as fact.

    The lawful action discussed is not opinion it is fact. If you cannot stomach that, it's not my problem.
    Tubby45, dude, you aren't going to change his mind. I feel your pain, I really do, but he isn't going to change his mind. Given the choice, Tubby, I will buy from you rather than from . But, seriously, just leave them alone and let them graze in their pastures!

  15. #75
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    The lawful action discussed is not opinion it is fact

    Then find documentation it is in fact law, and not subject to someones interpretation of the written word for me.

    Until you can provide case law on a decision from a court, the "law", as it is written, is open to anyone's interpretation, including the agents mentioned in this thread from two different states to date.

    In fact, thats how the law works in every subject. It's the interpretation of laws that are argued in a court of law. Once a decision by the courts has been rendered, it's no longer open to interpretation, it's a decision and that decision is then not open to further interpretation.

    If you cannot stomach that, it's not my problem.

    Exactly my thoughts sir.

    John,

    I don't believe deciding anothers opinion is more valid than anyone elses, including yours. See the above. You yourself admitted to succumbing to paying a fine in lieu of arguing the righ or wrong of a decision based on a cost analysis yourself. How can you then call people sheeple when you yourself have admitted your own financial interestws took precedent over what you felt was righteuos?

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

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