Father's purchasing guns for their son/daughter

This is a discussion on Father's purchasing guns for their son/daughter within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by NavyLT The thing is, LongRider, is that it is NOT against the law. The transaction that the OP proposed is simply the ...

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Thread: Father's purchasing guns for their son/daughter

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    The thing is, LongRider, is that it is NOT against the law. The transaction that the OP proposed is simply the son buying a gun for himself with money that he receives as a gift. And that is what irks me about this. Dad gives the son $500 in the parking lot of the store. Son goes in, picks out his gun, fills out the 4473, gets his gun, walks out. Nobody has a problem with that.

    But, dad and son go into the store. Dad says, "I would like my son to purchase a gun for himself, that he will own and maintain possession of, but I would like to pay for it." Now, all of a sudden, it's a shady deal.

    Yes, even I am a person of reason. Dad wants to sign a check or use his credit card to pay for the gun, then I can see the dealer refusing because the paperwork trail which he has to show to the ATF will have a receipt with a different name then the 4473. But just because a legal transfer of either the money or gun as a gift occurs between two persons in front of the FFL vice in the parking lot, with no paperwork affected, that bugs me.
    Oh I get that it is not illegal in anyway shape or form. That is why I made two suggestions on how to deal with it. Be up front with the shop and ask how they want to deal with it. We have a couple of shops we could do that with. But I can see where that would be a problem with some shops that don't know you. The other being window shop first and come by later to make the buy. Would not have suggested either if it was illegal. My point is the moronic law that makes this an issue in the first place a 12 year old can buy a ton of explosive fertilizer or rat poison without filling out a stack of paperwork. No reason an adult can not buy any gun they want for themselves, their son, long lost second cousin to your third grade best friend or a bum on the street for that matter. Its supposed to be our money to do with as we please. All for a law that has nothing to do with crime control and everything to do with citizen control. Apparently we are supposed to be to stupid to notice that
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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  3. #17
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    No reason an adult can not buy any gun they want for themselves, their son, long lost second cousin to your third grade best friend or a bum on the street for that matter. Its supposed to be our money to do with as we please. All for a law that has nothing to do with crime control and everything to do with citizen control. Apparently we are supposed to be to stupid to notice that
    I hear you. I agree, most gun control laws are just keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens, where guns belong, and don't do anything to keep criminals from carrying them. I wish the lawmakers would deal with the criminals instead of telling me where I can and can't carry a gun and how I can carry it.

    And I also don't like it when we take, what actually is a very simple law about straw purchase, and start adding all kinds of fluff to it that just isn't there. And I have been on the short end of the stick regarding a ridiculous charge and a judge who was pissed of at me for saying so. But that hasn't made me afraid of the police, I just won't cooperate with them any more than I minimally have to according to law. I wish FFLs weren't so afraid of the BATFE agents, but some of the agents who act like the gestapo have made it that way.

  4. #18
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    My friends, you can argue ideals all day long, but why not do it the easy way?
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    A straw purchase is strictly, and only, when you buy a gun with someone else's money and you subsequently give that gun to the person who gave you the money.
    ATF defines a straw purchase as “the acquisition of a firearm(s) from an FFL by an individual (the “straw”) done for the purpose of concealing the identity of the true intended receiver of the firearms.” (ATF Order 3310.4B, Firearms Enforcement Program, Chapter K, Section 143(ee).

    Furthermore, if you purchase a firearm to gift to a prohibited person (ie felon, domestic violence conviction, etc) where you had reason to believe they were a prohibited person, it's illegal.

    If you purchase a firearms to gift to a person who is eligible to possess that firearm, it's a gift and completely legal.

    Wanna have some real fun? Check this one out:

    Convicted felon father paying for a handgun for a gift to a son of 19yo. Both live in same state. Both live in same house. Legal in state to own/possess handgun at 18yo.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  6. #20
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Furthermore, if you purchase a firearm to gift to a prohibited person (ie felon, domestic violence conviction, etc) where you had reason to believe they were a prohibited person, it's illegal.
    You are correct Tubby45. However the section of 18USC922 that would be violated is the section regarding transferring firearms to prohibited persons. And the the FFL knew the gun was purchased as a gift to a prohibited person they would be guilty as well. However, the portion of 18USC922 that deals with making false oral or written statements to a dealer would not be violated, because, in fact, no false oral or written statement was made.

    If you purchase a firearms to gift to a person who is eligible to possess that firearm, it's a gift and completely legal.
    That is correct, REGARDLESS of whether the receiver of the gift is eligible to purchase that firearm from the dealer or not. They may not be eligible for purchase from the dealer, but may be legal to purchase or otherwise obtain the firearm from a private party, and that is all that matters in this case, can the recipient legally obtain the gun from the giver.

    Wanna have some real fun? Check this one out:

    Convicted felon father paying for a handgun for a gift to a son of 19yo. Both live in same state. Both live in same house. Legal in state to own/possess handgun at 18yo.
    Let's not deal with the question of the possession of the firearm in the same house as the father, to me, that is a separate issue. Felon father buys the gun himself to give the gun as a gift: illegal. Felon dad gives son money, son buys the gun to keep for himself: legal.

    Son does 4473, felon dad pays the FFL, son takes AND KEEPS possession of the gun...still technically legal, the son is purchasing the gun for his own possession, not someone else's. HOWEVER in this case, how in the heck is the FFL ever going to explain the paperwork on this one to the ATF agent! Come on, Tubby45, don't tell me that even you would do this one! Not even I would do this one, if I was an FFL.

  7. #21
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Husker View Post
    My friends, you can argue ideals all day long, but why not do it the easy way?
    Why not be allowed to do it in any way that is permitted by law? Son fills out 4473, dad gives son cash right there on the spot , because dad didn't know which gun son was going to pick out and how much it would cost, and declares, this money is a birthday present, Christmas present whatever. Son gives FFL cash, FFL gives son the gun. Yet most FFL's have said they would not do this, they would call the deal off as soon as the cash traded hands between son and father.

    My question is, why can I perform a perfectly legal transaction in the parking lot of the store, but I can't perform that exact same legal transaction at the counter? AND the FFL's paperwork is NOT going to be affected, the receipt is still saying payment came from the son, which, in fact, it did. Dad wants to write a check or credit card, sorry, I draw the line there myself, because then the FFL's paperwork IS affected.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    Simple, because you've brought a third party into the equation. One who's business and income depends on the opinions of folks who may or may not know the law, and can't afford to dispute an ATF agent who DOESN"T know it as well as you. He may very well prevail, but at what cost?

    I'm a Dad, and over the last 30 years have bought countless guns for my daughters. Never once have I raised the stink you've brought up in these two threads. I bought two Chipmunk .22's. My dealer knew I wasn't going to shoot them, they didn't come close to fitting me. I simply gave them to my girls and we went out shooting. When they were 18 and decided which pistols they liked, I went and bought them, then gave them to my girls as gifts. Why in the world would I want to put my FFL in a spot to decide if they could sell them to me? You folks that stand on principal alone will soon stand alone.
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

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