This is a discussion on Father's purchasing guns for their son/daughter within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Would be a problem if a father were to take their son to a purchase a handgun, have the son fill out the paperwork, but ...
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Would be a problem if a father were to take their son to a purchase a handgun, have the son fill out the paperwork, but the father pays for it ?
I know gun shops have that sign from the BATFE that says you have to be the actual buyer of the firearm.
Does that include father paying for a handgun for their son or daughter ? Or is it talking about purchasing a gun and filling out the paperwork for another person ?
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If they're qualified buyers, I'd just give them the money ahead of time and avoid any issues.
Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.
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It seems like that would kinda ruin the whole 'happy birthday' surprise thing
I always thought it was a common thing but when I saw the sign I just wondered about it
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Oh crap, here we go. What you propose is perfectly legal. Read my thread very close to this one regarding buying a handgun as a gift for 18 to 20 year olds. FFL's won't have any problem with what you propose because of an imaginary rule that they have that allow immediate family members to conduct perfectly legal business.Originally Posted by Shrugs
Are you and the son/daughter residents of the same state? Why can't you just fill out the paperwork and buy the gun and give it to them as a gift?
I think it's still a surprise when you announce your plans for him to be able to buy his own weapon.
Let him pick it out, let him fill out the paperwork, and let him pay for it (hand him the cash on the way to the gun shop, "Surprise!")...keep it simple.
Avoid any and all problems, and at the same time give him the 'experience' of buying his first weapon.
Why is it that you have to do the purchase?
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
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There was a thread a good while back about a couple who went in to the store and the husband picked out a gun. He filled out all the paperwork and when it came time to pay the wife pulled out her credit card and said happy birthday. The store owner refused to sell them the gun because he said that it would be a straw purchase. The general concensus was that the store owner was correct but I don't know. What you are talking about is the same thing so I can't advise you except maybe either give them the money ahead of time or let them pick it out and you go back and buy it later.
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Of course the store owner would think it was a straw purchase, even though, by definition it was not. A straw purchase is strictly, and only, when you buy a gun with someone else's money and you subsequently give that gun to the person who gave you the money. It does not matter which changes hands first, the money or the gun. If the gun goes to the same person who paid the money, but a different person's name is on the 4473, that is the only time a straw purchase has occured.
A straw purchase does not occur in either of the two scenarios brought up, because the purchaser is purchasing a gun with the intention of keeping that gun for themselves and retaining ownership of that gun. It doesn't matter whose money they use to purchase it with, so long as the person on the 4473 is keeping the gun for themselves.
FFLs must deal with the ATF, though, and after the parties leave the store, all the ATF has during an audit to examine is paperwork. In the scenario above, the 4473 would be in one person's name, but the credit card receipt would be in another person's name, very hard to explain. I can completely understand an FFL not doing that one, because the paperwork is sure going to look screwed up.
In the case of the question the OP asked, so long as the gun was paid for by cash, or by either a check or credit card in the name of the same person as on the 4473, then that it is different. The paperwork would show the money came from the same person as on the 4473. Both transactions are actually legal, but proving that legality later by the FFL is the problem.
Now if one person fills out the 4473, then the second person hands the first person cash, and first person, who filled out the 4473, pays for the gun and keeps possession and ownership of that gun, most FFLs will NOT allow the sale that way because of the money changing hands in the store in front of them, even though it is a perfectly legal transaction.
Again, to re-iterate and make it simple, a straw purchase absolutely DOES NOT occur if either:
1. The person filling out the 4473 keeps the gun for themselves, regardless of where the money for that gun came from, OR
2. The person filling out the 4473 is doing so with the intent of giving that gun away TO ANY OTHER PERSON as a gift. Obviously, if the "any other person" is where the money came from, then it IS a straw purchase.
note: the "any other person" definition of a gift is the ATF's written interpretation of the law in the 2005 Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide.
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A couple of months ago our Deputy Sheriff friend advised my wife to carry a gun with her.I ran across a used S&W 340PD and bought it for her, great little gun. I kept it for my use until my wife caught up with the credit card bill so I had to show it to her.
She took one look at it and said "You bought me a little gun, Thank You".
She now carries it in the console of he car most of the time since she can't carry into her classroom with all the kids.
I drive her car a lot, we are still married and I claim ownership
of it even though she thinks it is hers.
Was that a straw purchase.
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+1Just be there with him/her to share inthe experience!
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
(Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay
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No. Of course not. You could have handed her the gun in the parking lot of the gun store and it would not have been a straw purchase. It would have been a gift. You could have handed it to her right there in front of the FFL and ATF and it would have been a gift. How they perceived your actions would be the problem.A couple of months ago our Deputy Sheriff friend advised my wife to carry a gun with her.
The ATF has specifically said in writing that a gun purchased with the intent of giving that gun as a gift to ANY OTHER PERSON is NOT a straw purchase.
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alright cool everyone
i'll just give him some gift money on the way to the store
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Buy the guns yourself, hand it to them and say "SURPRISE"!!!
"First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
Edge of Darkness
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And apparently, according to some BATF agents and FFL's, it is perfectly acceptable to do that at the store only if the receiver is an immediate family member and are eligible to purchase the gun themselves from a dealer.
But if that person is either not a family member, or is a family member who can't buy it from the dealer because of their age but can receive it from a private person legally, then you have to wait until you get home to do it. Otherwise the ATF will fine the FFL and possibly suspend their license because you did something perfectly legal in their store.I believe I have it correct now?
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Another one of those moronic laws that do nothing but register guns. Why not tell the gun dealer what you are doing. I'd like to buy my son a gift. How would you like us to handle that?
Or go gun shopping to several shops have your son pick out what he likes. Than when he is sure go back and buy the gun he wants. Same as I do with the wife and her jewelry. Window shop without buying. I can tell what she really likes and that is what ends up under the tree or whatever.
Stupid law like it has ever kept a thug from getting the gun of their choice.
Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution
Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family
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The thing is, LongRider, is that it is NOT against the law. The transaction that the OP proposed is simply the son buying a gun for himself with money that he receives as a gift. And that is what irks me about this. Dad gives the son $500 in the parking lot of the store. Son goes in, picks out his gun, fills out the 4473, gets his gun, walks out. Nobody has a problem with that.
But, dad and son go into the store. Dad says, "I would like my son to purchase a gun for himself, that he will own and maintain possession of, but I would like to pay for it." Now, all of a sudden, it's a shady deal.
Yes, even I am a person of reason. Dad wants to sign a check or use his credit card to pay for the gun, then I can see the dealer refusing because the paperwork trail which he has to show to the ATF will have a receipt with a different name then the 4473. But just because a legal transfer of either the money or gun as a gift occurs between two persons in front of the FFL vice in the parking lot, with no paperwork affected, that bugs me.
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