Those delicate family discussions
This is a discussion on Those delicate family discussions within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; My wife was not brought up with guns. I hunt so when we met I had shotguns and a rifle anyway. I started back into ...
October 27th, 2008 04:27 PM
My wife was not brought up with guns. I hunt so when we met I had shotguns and a rifle anyway. I started back into handguns, became an instructor for the permit to carry and now carry all the time. While she will never carry herself and doesn't particularly like to shoot she sees the world for what it is, a dangerous place. She even explained to a class I was teaching why she doesn't have a problem with me carrying. (I conduct the classes out of our home.)
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONTESTING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
Utah Permit Certified Instructor
October 27th, 2008 09:17 PM
I would calmly explain the reasons for arming yourself. Then if she says no I would do it anyhow. Some things are too important. I wouldn't lie to her about it. I would say something along the line of... "While I am trying to respect your views I feel this is too important to be overruled. I AM going to buy a firearm to protect ourselves and our home. I AM buying a gun and if you ever change your mind and want to learn more about it let me know."
I American and I Ameriwill!
November 2nd, 2008 07:23 PM
Holy F.S!!!! That went over like a Lead Balloon! More later; can't think straight from the shouting still echoing off the walls an hour later!
You guys with compliant, even participating wives have it made you lucky SOBs.
November 2nd, 2008 07:37 PM
So, what is it she believes is true?
Originally Posted by DaveInTexas
- That guns are evil and, by virtue of your having one, you're now bringing evil into the home?
- That you are endangering the family by being armed?
- That you misled her, or kept this from her?
- That you don't have a responsibility to keep the family safe from harm?
- That crime cannot happen to you or your family, whether in town or at home?
- That the rosy, liberal harangue in the media is painting the only picture worth understanding, in regards to crime and criminals?
- That she would prefer to be attacked or raped, instead of being able to protect and defend against that? (Though, this sort of question is for another time, when she's a bit more open to discussion.)
November 2nd, 2008 09:10 PM
I take it the delicate approach didn't work. I take it she chose not to remain calm.
Originally Posted by DaveInTexas
Originally Posted by MackinacMike
Originally Posted by limatunes
Okay, it sounds like you've met the honesty requirements.
Originally Posted by DaveInTexas
Originally Posted by archer51
Agreed. The bottom line is this: do you need her permission to take care of her?
Originally Posted by atctimmy
I faced something similar with my wife. She didn't see the need and thought I was crazy for doing it. Didn't matter. I'm carrying anyway, whether she likes it or not. If she wants to argue about it, that's fine. I'll protect her even though she fights against it. If I had compromised with her on when I carried, I'd be compromising for the rest of our lives on this issue. I chose not to do that. She got over it. If she hadn't, I'd still be carrying.
What do you value, temporary peace (until something bad happens, then add intense and possibly life-long guilt) or protecting her to the best of your ability?
Bottom line: your decision, not hers. If you two can reach a common agreement, great. If not, it's still your decision on how you choose to protect her and the family.
Good points to raise if she is willing to calmly discuss the issues. If she isn't willing, then you have a choice to make: protect your family to the best of your ability, or compromise for the sake of temporary peace.
Originally Posted by ccw9mm
I would rather have the peace of knowing I am as prepared as I can be for a home invasion, etc., rather than the temporary peace of getting along with a spouse who is anti-gun. Easy call for me, and I make it every single day. I choose the peace that comes from preparedness over the temporary peace from appeasing a mate who doesn't see the risks in life from BG's.
I've taken some heat from this forum, even from some who responded to your post, for my unflinching view on my responsibility to my family, and my unwillingness to compromise on the issue of carrying a gun. That's fine with me. I look at myself in the mirror every day, not at anyone from this forum. When my family and I are all in bed and I hear loud noises from the other end of the house, it won't be my wife coming to our aid, nor will it be anyone from this forum. It will be me, with my .45 from under the bed. Had I listened to my wife or certain members here who accused me of being draconian or obsessed, my .45 wouldn't be there.
No way am I going to let some whining, yelling, pouting, or criticism keep me from protecting my family. I'll protect her even though she fights against me when I do it, and even if no one else agrees with me.
When the dust settles, I will have done my best. And that includes not letting some yelling, whining, or criticism influence me to do less.
On a positive note, she has gradually come to accept it. And when we heard loud noises in our kitchen the other night after we had all gone to bed, she was glad I was prepared. A few nights later, when she saw me putting a light on my .45 as we were going to bed, and I explained it was so I could identify our daughter in the middle of the night and not shoot her accidentally, I think she was beginning to see the wisdom of being prepared. She's still not there yet, but she has chosen not to make it an issue because I'm not flinching on this one. My call, and I have total peace about it. When some scum kicks in our front door as we're watching t.v., I'll be ready. When someone breaks into our house in the middle of the night, I'll be ready. That's all the peace I need. I do not care what anyone else says. I'll protect my family til hell freezes over, and then some.
I don't need anyone's permission to do so, and I'll never ask.
That's the bottom line.
I have intense peace from being prepared, even if I have to stand alone to do it.
The thought of giving in to my wife and lowering our defenses, just for the sake of temporary and false peace, makes me want to puke.
Not this husband, not this father, not this warrior.
Not this lifetime.
November 2nd, 2008 10:35 PM
November 2nd, 2008 10:43 PM
Uh oh. Good luck.
Originally Posted by DaveInTexas
"Trust in God with hand on sword"
-Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately.
November 3rd, 2008 12:27 AM
Huh. Well, every time I've bought a gun, I discuss it with my wife. Make sure we don't have any upcoming bills I may not know of. I've been told, not right now, plenty of times. Honesty works.
God Bless America!!
November 3rd, 2008 12:54 AM
Hm. Let's just see how that argument stacks up. Unknown whether your partner will enjoy having such a discussion or whittling down of points to ponder, but there it is.
Originally Posted by DaveInTexas
Think about these questions, as they pertain to your family's safety and security. I have no idea if this will help, in this situation. Your S.O.'s position seems entrenched based on what she has heard, what she fears, and what she believes to be true.
In reality, matches, scissors, needle & thread, fire extinguishers, rope, knives, firearms and telephones are all examples of tools we use in our daily lives. They each have a purpose. The most important thing to realize is that there is no good alternative to each one, when you've got a specific problem (ie, try putting out a fire with scissors, or stopping a criminal assault with needle & thread).
Think hard, 'cause this is deadly serious.
1. Are you a good person, by your philosophy, words and actions? And by extension are you a good husband/father? Do you provide well for your family, help where needed, support each member, give and take, show strength and flexibility in good measure?
2. When something needs doing, are you by nature one who tightens the belt and then gets to the business of doing? Even if the task to be done is a bit scary, a bit distasteful, or a bit risky?
3. Do you feel a deep responsibility to ensure that the health and well-being of your family is provided for, both during good times and bad?
4. Do you know that crime and criminals have reached your town and are regularly threatening citizens with violence, even death? How do you know this? Does your chief of police or county sheriff support your assessment that these are dangerous times, and that the violence being seen is impossible to predict ahead of time? Is your dear partner aware of these instances, these threats to everyone's well-being? Does she think you're lying or deliberately exaggerating what you've found out to be perfectly true?
5. Can you guarantee that crime won't strike the family across the street? Can you guarantee that crime won't strike your own family? Could it be that you don't have a published calendar from the ACME Crime Syndicate, this year? Why is that? Could it be that such things don't exist? Could it be that NOBODY KNOWS when a crime is about to strike?? Read the "big city" newspaper in your region for a month and then save the article clippings, if you disbelieve how surprisingly random things seem to the victims, and even to the police.
6. Can you recall having heard comments of disbelief reported in the newspaper in situations where victims or residents were flabbergasted that they never thought such things would happen here, or happen to them?
7. There are many small steps that can be taken to help guard against crime. Some things work passably well, as one step in the puzzle, while many don't make one lick of difference. How many things can you think of that you and your family have done to specifically improve your security or defenses?
8. Do you believe that locked doors are going to keep an intruder from entering your home? Does your partner? (If so, do you know how simple it is to jimmy open a lock, force one in, or break a window and sidestep the locked door?)
9. Do you believe improved lighting will help keep prowlers from entering the home? Prevention during the daytime, after one or both of you have headed off to the day's tasks?
10. If an intruder were, beyond all odds, to select your home and decide to enter, what exactly would each of you be prepared to do in order to withstand the attack? Would you make a telephone call to police, who are minutes and miles away ... all the while under the watchful eye of that intruder? Would you scream? Would you attack the attacker, even though you were unarmed and unlikely to be effective?
11. If an intruder into your home (or attacker on the street) were energetic and brazen enough to want to inflict harm on someone, what exactly could be done to stop the attack? What if, like so very many criminals these days, that attacker were armed with something really dangerous? What if, like all those articles in the newspaper, the criminal had a knife or gun? What then??
12. The children's game of Rock/Paper/Scissors is a simple exercise in the relative utility of tools, of the relative value of a given tool at a given time. How useful is hoping the criminal doesn't find you, when he (or they) has broken down the door and entered your home? How useful is getting on the telephone during the ~10 seconds between the time the criminal has broken down the door and you're found on the phone? How useful is being unarmed, when the criminal has a weapon of some kind ... God forbid, a baseball bat, knife or gun? How useful, exactly??
13. Against a gun-wielding criminal who is bent on harming or killing your family, how useful would a firearm be in the hands of you and/or your partner in being able to withstand that attack, until such time as you could arrange the time to get on the phone to call police? Completely and utterly useless, simply due to the idea that it's an evil thing? Or, fairly useful and worthwhile at that moment, given that it's about the only thing that has a prayer of stopping a criminal that's armed to the teeth and bent on rape or murder?
14. The mass media of our modern world has a simple message, when it comes to outsourcing our security to police. That message is this: don't worry, we'll protect you; we're simply a phone call away; we have the power and authority to arrest criminals and that should be sufficient to keep you safe from harm. And yet, the courts have consistently upheld one simple legal truth: that police have no specific duty to protect anyone. What of that? If police do not actually have the responsibility to protect you, then who is going to protect you until they arrive to assist in the bloody clean-up? Who, if not you and your partner? At 2am on the instant of a violent break-in, who??
15. If you are not evil by nature, and are instead loving, caring and responsible ... if you recognize how pointless and ineffective that prayer, hope and even pixie dust can be during an actual crime in progress ... if you recognize the utility of being armed and trained in the defense of those you most love in this world, then how is it you become evil by taking the lone practical step possible that can (a la Rock/Paper/Scissors) trump all "arguments" that a criminal may make about your impending rape or murder?
16. Unlike the Rock/Paper/Scissors game that children play, criminal attacks are deadly serious. People die every day from being able to do bupkis against crime when it raises its ugly head. Against armed assault, what tool would be most effective, most usable by the adults in the family, most likely to stop the attack? Matches? Rope? Telephone (despite the fact that the average response time is measured in multiple minutes)? Q-tips? Garden hose? Steak knife? Firearm? Against a criminal that has already brought out a knife or gun, which tool would be most effective?
November 3rd, 2008 01:48 AM
Or, you woman, you make baby. Me man, I protect woman and baby. End of discussion.
* This works best in a Tarzan voice and in movies. lol
Bitter and clinging to my guns and my religion.
November 3rd, 2008 07:20 AM
Just the other night, the phone rang and it was my gun dealer telling me my order had been delivered. We have caller ID, and my wife could have picked up on another phone while I was talking to him (no big deal to me either way). I got ready to leave and mentioned to my wife where I was going, and I told her the truth, that I've got to go to the gun store. She asked me what I had bought and I told her, "I bought some AK-47's". She picked up on that FAST........and said loudly, "SOME?"
November 3rd, 2008 02:28 PM
Hang in there... She's at the "I can't believe it!" stage. It's definitely a work in progress.
Originally Posted by DaveInTexas
As others have stated, she has preconcieved notions of what it means to have a gun in the house. It takes work and patience to help her understand your perspective. Lots of patience.
This weekend while out walking with my wife and 1 y/o baby, we talked a little about guns. She knows I own a few, and where the main home-defense one is, how I've secured it away from my 5 y/o step son, but does not yet know that I regularly carry a smaller S&W IWB. The main issue I have with her "preconcieved notions" is that her ex-husband is a local LEO and went overboard with his requirement for protection (guns scattered all over the house, forcing her to have one by her bedside at night, always carrying in the car, etc). It's taken me 4 years of small conversations and "give and take" to get her open to *my* perspective of protection. She's still a little naive. When presented with the decision of what to do if someone breaks into our home with evil intentions, her first reaction is to grab the kids and hide while calling 911. Mine is a slightly more agressive approach, still with the same end in mind - protect the family. She's coming around.... And I'm still working on the conversation about me carrying, to which I expect some resistence, but it also helps I've been doing it completely unobtrusively for over 6 months.
As I said, hang in there. It's a discussion, not an decision. (okay, that sounded better in my head than in writing, but you get the idea).
November 3rd, 2008 03:20 PM
...can't think straight from the shouting still echoing off the walls an hour later!
I'm sorry but such behavior is unacceptable in any adult.
November 5th, 2008 04:35 PM
DaveInTexas: So, what's the status, now? Any moderation in the reaction? Any newfound acceptance and appreciation of the facts that form the basis of your rationale, in this regard?
November 5th, 2008 09:47 PM
Hi, thanks for your interest and support.
Yes this will be a long process, we have a lot of baggage to clear out. I will not give up.
Like much of the public, my truly fair's only exposure to firearms has been what she reads in the news ("a GUNman was shot and killed at a school today....") and unfortunately she knows a few folks that have used them to commit suicide (dang, they should make that illegal cuz of how it harms the reputation of firearms! -j/k). Also a bit of an anti-hunter too. Oh, and her dad accidentally shooting off his rifle in the house a few years ago did not help!
She has never been exposed to firearms in the form that I suspect 99% of them are used for ie - good purposes, even fun experiences.
My plan is to wait for the right time in the next few weeks (that's how we do things here, slowly!) and bring it up again. I think I will have little problem with Step One, which is 'I want to get a target pistol or range pistol, and will remove all the bullets (yes I know, but she understand 'bullets'), lock it in a metal box and hide it in the garage when I bring it back home.
Also, she really likes that I study things carefully and take official courses before launching into something (like the MSF course when I bought the motorcycle) so I plan to take the CHL course early in 09.
Finally I need to draw in some local friend support ie some respected co-workers and a mutual friend we have who are all owners and sensible people and show her that I have not suddenly gone to the dark side and do not have a black hood and scythe in a closet somewhere.
Wish me luck and I really appreciate being able to bounce this off y'all.
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