AD/ND - Page 2

AD/ND

This is a discussion on AD/ND within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by jfl You know the line about making a better idiot. I'll take a comparison from my job. Modern airplanes have, at least ...

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 26 of 26

Thread: AD/ND

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    1,413
    Quote Originally Posted by jfl View Post
    You know the line about making a better idiot.

    I'll take a comparison from my job.
    Modern airplanes have, at least 3 warning systems to avoid landing gear up: 2 visual and one or more aural.
    With monotonous regularity, pilots land gear up; it is a costly event !!!
    Some of these pilots are flight instructors ???

    It is so common that there are a couple of jokes:
    "What is the first thing a pilot does after a gear-up landing ?
    Put the gear handle down !!!"
    "There are two kind of pilots, those who did and those who will"

    One of the things I teach my students is that the first item on the pre-flight check-list is : "Engage Brain"

    I took that analogy because just like a ND it goes from embarrassing to deadly and has the same cause: something stopped working between your ears

    Humans make mistakes; even in something as carefully planned as a space mission, highly qualified individuals operating with numerous procedures will let go of a tool bag

    In almost 60 years of gun handling I never had an unintentional discharge; didn't land gear up either .... knock on wood.

    To the OP:
    You could have a bright flashing light on the gun, somebody will screw up nevertheless.
    Also, more "gadgets" mean more thing that can go wrong (and more cost).

    You cannot have 100% all the time...
    How about we extend this analogy a little. Personally I would not mind a more visible loaded chamber indicator, just as I would have no problem with a voice blaring at me that I am too low and the gear is up. Warnings can help a lot to the habitually distracted.

    On the other hand, someone not from this board reading this thread might come to the conclusion that you it is asking for mandatory safety devices. And, the continuation of this line of logic is that we need to protect the users from themselves. When you design devices with that theory, to use the analogy, you get Airbus jets that falsely detect a stall and point the nose at the ground, meanwhile the whole time the pilot is trying to nose up but the computer disagrees and locks them out.

    So, as much as I think it would be a 'good idea' I would be careful with this type of reasoning. At some point no matter what the device is, the one ultimately responsible must be the (human) user.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
    ---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
    ---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately. ---


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array jualdeaux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Waponi Woo
    Posts
    1,045
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveInTexas View Post
    OK you guys are not big on arguments so I will argue with myself!

    The ONLY good argument I have against my own suggestion is the Slippery Slope Theory.
    The SST says that if you do this one safety improvement, where will it end? Will this be followed with a dozen other 'improvements' that might interfere with our liberties and enjoyment of our hobby/sport?

    I agree this is a big concern and do not have an answer.
    But I don't think we should let our ego get in the way of accepting a safety improvement!
    it seems to me that you are missing the point that others are making.

    There are plenty of safety features already implemented in modern firearms. There are grip safeties, trigger safeties, manual safeties, loaded chamber indicators, magazines safeties, drop safeties, hammer block safeties, a hole in the top so you can easily check to see if there is a cartridge in the chamber. Even with all these there are still NDs. What makes you think any other device will make a difference? People will still get lazy and/or stupid and bad things will happen as a result.
    Bend the knees, smooth is fast, watch the front sight.

  3. #18
    Member Array DaveInTexas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    199
    The ONLY way to ensure the weapon is not loaded is to open the action, visually and physically ensure it is not loaded and then continue handling the weapon as if it were. (and, preferably, lock the slide back or leave the cylinder open)
    That's so true. Right now. As it has been for all the years we have had firearms. But let's open our minds to a new idea for just a moment.

    Try to imagine a hypothetical modification that would make a lot of that thinking obsolete.

    You could look at a gun from a distance and immediately tell what was going to happen if you pulled the trigger. Wow! Wouldn't that be cool!?



    "Impossible! I would never trust it! You would still have to drop the mag, rack the slide, look in the chamber!" is the answer I am hearing.

    I propose that with a successfully designed modification not only would we be able to set aside this as 'old thinking', but more importantly, the incidents of AD/ND would dramatically diminish and our hobby/sport would become significantly safer plus enjoy a much better reputation in the public's eyes.

    I bet there is at least one person on this forum who is open-minded enough to consider the possibility that such a theoretical change could be for the better?

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    1,413
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveInTexas View Post
    I bet there is at least one person on this forum who is open-minded enough to consider the possibility that such a theoretical change could be for the better?
    I'm in favor of it, but I'm against it being mandatory
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
    ---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
    ---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately. ---

  5. #20
    Member Array DaveInTexas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    199
    Quote Originally Posted by GWRedDragon View Post
    On the other hand, someone not from this board reading this thread might come to the conclusion that you it is asking for mandatory safety devices.
    I hear you loud and clear.
    And I would never be a part of that.
    I am absolutely not in favor of more government and even have reservations about the law that has come from seatbelts which I used as an analogy.

    Put it this way; I would like the option to be available for me.
    Who knows however, maybe over time such an idea would gather interest because it was shown to be statistically a huge benefit and it would become popular.

    But I am listening and know what you are saying about it. That Airbus crash was murder.


    edit following last few posts:
    I never used the term MANDATORY, I was not even thinking the word!! Let's drop that from this discussion. I would never even suggest forcing this on anyone!

  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    1,681
    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Familiarity breed complacency. Be aware of this and take the extra time to double or triple check your loaded/unloaded status.
    Ditto...so very easy to fall into this trap.

    Rick

  7. #22
    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    408
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveInTexas View Post
    I bet there is at least one person on this forum who is open-minded enough to consider the possibility that such a theoretical change could be for the better?
    Just because I do not agree that it would be an improvement, does not mean that I haven't considered your point.

    I have considered it. And rejected it.

    That isn't being closed-minded. That is disagreeing with you.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,179
    Chamber indicators are great til they quit working like the one in my XD9 so now what just cause the little thing stays up all the time I either think it's loaded or nah it's empty the thingys just broke,
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    3,719
    Hey Dave,
    Reread jualdeaux's post a few times. He nailed it. Plus for an ND to happen someone had to ignore, not only all those hardware items on the firearm, but also: 1) assume all guns are loaded, 2) muzzle control 3) finger off the trigger, and 4) target id.

    If you think something additional would help, come up with a solution. If your response is you don't have the experience - get it or listen to those who do, (you know - the people you aren't listening to).

    I work at a shooting range. Everyone gets a safety briefing the first time out. Everyone is reminded about muzzle control at the end of every cease fire just before they are allowed to resume shooting. The number one problem at the range is still muzzle control. If people can't get it thru their skulls not to point the whole gun in an unsafe direction, a passive indicator will absolutely, positively not change anything. No gadget is going to end ND's. You may want to reread this and let it sink in a bit.

    The only thing I would imagine would change peoples' habits is having an electric shock wired to their privates and whenever they pointed the muzzle in an unsafe direction, they would get a 10,000 volt shock. After a few times, they might get the idea for about a month. Believe me, such a device has been on the range wish list for quite awhile. If you come up with something, let us know.

    Problem with any gadget invented is that it still lets people off the hook for actually using their head for something other than a hat rack.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Detroit Michigan
    Posts
    679
    Nice thought, however people do stupid things no matter how much you try to stop them from hurting themselves, shooting ones self is just one of many stupid things.

    People put their hands into power more blades while the engine is running, garbage disposals and so on we put signs on fans with a cage around it to keep them from getting hurt.

    One reason we have such stupid people is, in the old days just before a child walked behind a horse an older person (brother sister adult) would warn the kid of the danger of doing that. If the kid didn’t pick up on the importance of what he was being schooled on and kept on walking behind horses he would end up dead from a kick to the head.
    Also eliminating the possibility to someday raise children of his own.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,004
    Hey Dave, instead of relying on a device (as we know any mechanical device can fail) why don't we just operate on the assumption that any time you pull the trigger a round will be discharged?
    Doesn't that make more sense than trusting some gizmo?

    And why would your gizmo need to be visible from a distance, like across a room as you mentioned? For an ND to happen it has to be within arms reach! You can't negligently discharge a weapon that is any further away from your eyes than three and a half feet, unless you are in the habit of manipulating weapons with something like a pool cue or your feet.
    Last edited by mcp1810; December 1st, 2008 at 08:24 AM.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •