This is a discussion on AD/ND within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; It seems to me after all my reading that this is very commonplace. It happens to folks who are supposed to know better; ie not ...
November 30th, 2008 11:24 AM
It seems to me after all my reading that this is very commonplace. It happens to folks who are supposed to know better; ie not your average owner but Instructors and Experts. You can see them on youtube etc; read about them in the news.
I know our typical reaction is that the gun owner/handler is fully responsible and could easily have prevented the incident if only s/he had "......."
That reaction is fine, I am on board with it.
But I want to probe the issue beyond that.
I propose that we are now living in a state of such technological capability that many of these AD/NDs could be prevented by various modifications to the firearms.
When I look at the incidents the main thing that pops up is 'he didn't realize it was loaded'.
When we review the 4 Golden Gun Rules, they emphasize the same problem, you cannot easily tell if a gun has a cartridge chambered. (rules 1 and 2)
Because of these continuing incidents and the fact that 2 of the 4 rules concern this, it tells me that AD/ND is still a huge problem.
I know we can't fix stupid. I know this is all part of gun ownership. I know only the handler can pull, or not pull the trigger. Please save those comments.
I am looking beyond all that and wondering if manufacturers can make a simple but obvious device on all guns to make it instantly obvious what is about to happen when the trigger is pulled. We can invent a gun to eject a spent cartridge, reload a full one, cock the hammer and be ready to go again in the wink of an eye..... but we can't design an orange 'flag' that is visible from 3 sides of a gun to indicate the chamber is full?
Perhaps there is a reason why this is undesirable and I am not aware of it yet. I know some have 'windows' and others a tiny firing indicator. They don't seem that easy to spot, or obvious to me - I was thinking something in the region of the loaded cartridge, that can be seen from above, from left and right and from 10 or 20 feet away.
It just seems silly to me that of all things, we still don't know what is going to happen to a gun, the next time we pull the trigger! Heck my computer printer tells me when I am out of paper, I bet someone could come up with something simple for a gun.
Thanks for listening to a newbie's crazy ideas.
November 30th, 2008 11:24 AM
November 30th, 2008 11:40 AM
I see it a different way. Gun redesign cost more money and that cost would be passed on to the consumer. This will also take away little more personal responsibility out of the hands of people. All one has to do is to rack the slide to check the chamber. If you can't do that religiously then maybe you should not own a gun. I do this many times when I do dry fire practice and I also never point it in an unsafe direction.
My 2 cents.
November 30th, 2008 11:41 AM
Familiarity breed complacency. Be aware of this and take the extra time to double or triple check your loaded/unloaded status.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
November 30th, 2008 11:50 AM
Perhaps we could also place warning alarms on circular saws, band saws, drills, chain saws, carving knives, walls (I sometimes walk into them...), and the list goes on.
Even if you designed a pistol with all the OSHA approved 'bells and whistles'...idiots abound...good luck with your inventions. OMO
Stay armed...use your head...stay safe!
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
November 30th, 2008 11:55 AM
Zero tolerance rule when around guns.
"TREAT ALL GUNS AS LOADED"
November 30th, 2008 12:49 PM
I know this is going to be a hard sell to you long-time gun owners! You have, all your ownership years had it repeatedly taught to you and it is a mantra that All Guns Are Loaded, You must check the chamber each time, it is the handler's duty to check each time and to just know what is in the chamber. I understand it is hard for you to get past that because we are talking a lifetime of training in that manner.
Just for a second, look at this from a new gun enthusiast's viewpoint, with a clear slate and zero imprinted knowledge about them.
Some of the people involved in these AD/ND incidents are not what you would consider idiots. They seem like reasonably smart and experienced people. A newbie looks at that and says, hey if that can happen to such long time gun owners and experienced folk, maybe it can happen to me! And....if it is happening so often and to such people perhaps it is not a bad idea to look at why, and what can be done to help prevent the next hundred of sad and needless injuries/deaths that are invariably bound to happen?
This would be a pretty easy and inexpensive thing to do when you compare it to lot of the tech things we have already done in this world.
If my car can tell me when I am getting close to the curb, if my freezer can tell me my ice is ready, if my mailbox can tell me when I have mail......I bet we could simply and easily and cheaply let folks know that their chamber is loaded at a glance from the outside of the gun. Just a thought.
November 30th, 2008 01:16 PM
there you go. have everyone trade there gun for an XD in what ever calaber they link. that group has a pop-up indacater for one in the barrel.
"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.
November 30th, 2008 02:04 PM
There are many guns that have loaded chamber indicators already. My wife's Glock does, both of my Taurus' do. One simple swipe of the trigger finger over the indicator tells your immediately without even looking.
The way I look at it. If your dumb enough not to check the gun before pulling the trigger, well extra bells and whistles aren't going to help much, people will ignore those as well.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
November 30th, 2008 02:11 PM
there are loaded chamber indicators. my ruger p345 has one, my ruger mark III has one. and thats about all i can remember..honestly i'd rather not have them its just one more thing to clean in and around and its just annoying. people just need to stop being lazy and check the damn chamber. cars are coming w/ lane crossing buzzers and blind spot thingiemagigies...if people would turn their head or use their mirrors instead of just talking on the cell phone and going into the lane blind there would be less accidents. you can never take the stupid/lazy out of the people. trying to invent devices to prevent stupidity is like trying to stop the sunrise, its just not going to happen. all it does is bring up tooling costs of the manufacturer and that cost gets handed down to us. check the chamber its a FREE and EASY way to make sure the gun is unloaded....
my politically incorrect $0.20
November 30th, 2008 02:40 PM
Interesting 1911 FYI Additions
One of the "old time" custom modifications for the Colt 1911 was to file a small semi-circle of metal out of the barrel hood so that a "visual verify" could be done to see if a cartridge was chambered or not.
There was ALSO a high quality aftermarket 1911 extractor that served double duty as a loaded chamber indicator.
It was actually a pretty neat little piece of engineering.
November 30th, 2008 03:09 PM
November 30th, 2008 04:54 PM
Hey JFL, ref your analogy. The goal is not to prevent every last AD/ND. I am a reasonable person. The goal would be to help minimize them, to reduce them significantly. The jet I fly (Citation) has a bitchin betty aural warning for the gear if you select approach flaps and no gear, or if you get below 120kts in any config. The point is: sure, folks have landed gear up in the Citation. BUT - I am willing to bet that before Bitchin Betty, there were a LOT more gearups!
If you like analogies, how about this one. When dad first got a car with seat belts...sometime in the 70's Dad was; "No way am I wearin those GD things"....well next week we lost a neighbor in a very slow crash - unrestrained and impacted window with their face. From that day on, the family always buckled up. He, like most of the public was able to get over his ego problem with the seatbelts 'being for weaklings" They offered a real and valuable improvement in safety for the average guy. (Sorry I don't buy that "well if they can't prevent an ADND then Darwin will take care of them" - I'm sorry, that's just internet rhetoric to me.)
I hear a lot of discussion about being safe with firearms on this forum. Is it all smoke or are we serious about safety? If we are serious, why so quick to dismiss even the suggestion of a simple, cheap method to fix a known and repeating problem?
(all the current indicators I have seen are pretty small, not as I suggested, visible from a distance)
Put it this way, maybe we will get more of you on board: Every time we see an AD/ND on Fox news, our group gets a black eye. If we could do something to prevent such disrepute being forced upon us, wouldn't that be a useful endeavor?
The other aspect is, if we can't institute change from within, it may well come from without and I suspect none of us will like that one bit.
Last edited by HotGuns; November 30th, 2008 at 11:15 PM.
Reason: language workaround
November 30th, 2008 05:08 PM
Even if you have a loaded chamber indicator that is not going to prevent NDs. Plenty of NDs happen with them. It is operator error. If the operator is complacent enough to pull the trigger at an inapropriate time why should we believe a loaded indicator would change that? How many NDs occur without the operator even looking at the weapon?
It is a poor craftsman that blames his failures on his tools.
Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis
November 30th, 2008 05:14 PM
I am actually afraid of anyone who relies on a loaded chamber indicator and won't spend time on the range with them.
The ONLY way to ensure the weapon is not loaded is to open the action, visually and physically ensure it is not loaded and then continue handling the weapon as if it were. (and, preferably, lock the slide back or leave the cylinder open)
Any reliance on anything else is foolhardy and an excuse for poor gunhandling.
Additonally, just because you checked your loaded chamber indicator before acting like and idiot and pointing you weapon at me (like tons of idiots at gun shows and gun stores) doesn't mean that I know that.
The four rules and more than safety for yourself, they are so even else knows that they are safe around you.
November 30th, 2008 05:17 PM
OK you guys are not big on arguments so I will argue with myself!
The ONLY good argument I have against my own suggestion is the Slippery Slope Theory.
The SST says that if you do this one safety improvement, where will it end? Will this be followed with a dozen other 'improvements' that might interfere with our liberties and enjoyment of our hobby/sport?
I agree this is a big concern and do not have an answer.
But I don't think we should let our ego get in the way of accepting a safety improvement!