Gun buying question for school - urgent!

Gun buying question for school - urgent!

This is a discussion on Gun buying question for school - urgent! within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Im competing in a mock trial at school. The hypothetical case is an obsessive boyfriend is left by his girlfriend. He makes threats against her ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array bal_g23's Avatar
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    Gun buying question for school - urgent!

    Im competing in a mock trial at school. The hypothetical case is an obsessive boyfriend is left by his girlfriend. He makes threats against her life, and a month later, she gets shot in the head at an intersection. The boyfriend claims he wasn't in the city at the time. Im the prosecution attorney in the case and have a few questions for you guys that may just help me close the case this Friday.

    1 Can you get a concealed weapons permit if you have a restraining order against you?

    2 If you already have a CWP, is it revoked if you get a restraining order filed against you?

    3 If you already have a CWP, is it revoked if you get a domestic violence charge against you?

    4 Can you buy a handgun if someone has a restraining order against you?

    5 And finally, in WA state, the waiting period for handguns is 5 days. Correct?

    anything helps!
    GUN CONTROL IS USING BOTH HANDS

    I believe its a shoulder thing that goes up - Carolyn McCarthy (D)

    The muzzle end of a .45 pretty much says go away in every language.
    -Clint Smith


  2. #2
    New Member Array ERW2's Avatar
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    My guess is and with the tiny amount of research I just did is that a restraining order trumps gun ownership. I found a california restraining order and on it was question about turning in your guns and I found a Connecticut statue that said you must turn in your guns.

    Sorry I could not be of more help.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    You need to check your state laws on the matter.

    Each state has different rules for obtaining a CHL, and different rules for what will get your CHL revoked.

    Have you checked with the state police or whatever agency issues the CHL in your state to see what the regulations for it is and what other laws pertain to it?
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  4. #4
    Member Array broknindarkagain's Avatar
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    If you have a RO or PO out on you, you can't have a firearm. This applies as soon as it is served to you.

    1 - no. a background check will pull up that you have a RO against you
    2 - i don't know if its formally "revoked", but if you get caught carrying after you are served the RO, you are going to have some legal problems
    3 - A pending DV charge shouldn't effect your carry rights (I may be wrong though) unless you're on probation or bail
    4 - No. Its illegal to own or buy any sort of firearm with a RO against you. A gun shop will run a background check on the spot.
    5 - can't answer this. i have no idea.

    Another thing you may want to consider is that its a felony to attempt to illegaly obtain a firearm (5 years). This includes lying on the 4473 (the form you fill out for a background check when you buy a gun from a store). However, this person can still buy a gun (however it will be illegal) and bypass the background checks. There is no background check for private gun sales.
    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

    Smith & Wesson M&P9c

  5. #5
    Member Array bal_g23's Avatar
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    do you still have to go through a background check at a gun shop if you have a your CWP?
    GUN CONTROL IS USING BOTH HANDS

    I believe its a shoulder thing that goes up - Carolyn McCarthy (D)

    The muzzle end of a .45 pretty much says go away in every language.
    -Clint Smith

  6. #6
    Member Array broknindarkagain's Avatar
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    I would imagine states have different laws on that.

    Here in Georgia, You have to fill out the 4473 (background check) but they don't call it in and check it. Its more or less just a papertrail that they keep on file. Attached to it is a photocopy of your drivers license as well as your carry permit. With my GFL (georgia firearms license) I show that with my drivers license, fill out the paper, and walk out with a brand new gun.

    I would think that if the person already had his concealed permit and didn't turn it over when he was issued a restraining order, he could easily walk into a gun shop, show his drivers license and permit...and walk out with a gun since the paperwork isn't called in to get checked. The person would be facing felony charges if they were caught though. Some states have waiting periods on handguns (az, tx, and ga the states I've lived in don't have waiting however) to help prevent "crimes of passion". So where you are, it may not be possible to walk out that day with a new gun
    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

    Smith & Wesson M&P9c

  7. #7
    Member Array broknindarkagain's Avatar
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    It looks as if handguns would be checked through a state wide background check. That would definatly pop up that there is a restraining order out. On top of that, on the federal 4473, it ask you if you have a RO against you....They would probably be able to tell you were lying on the form if you said no.

    http://www.thundertek.net/documents/4473.pdf

    thats a link to a copy of the form you have to fill out when you purchase a firearm. maybe that will help you a little bit. Below is a overview of some of WA gun laws. If you do a google search, you should be able to find plenty of information. It also looks like WA has a 5 day waiting period.

    Question: What are the Gun Laws in Washington??

    Answer: Child Access Prevention Law? No.
    Definition

    Juvenile Possession Law? Yes.
    Definition

    Juvenile Sale/Transfer Law? Yes.
    Definition

    State Requirements
    Rifles and Shotguns

    * Permit to purchase rifles and shotguns? No.

    * Registration of rifles and shotguns? No.

    * Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns? No.

    * Permit to carry rifles and shotguns? No.


    Handguns

    * Permit to purchase handgun? No. Police record made of purchases from dealers.

    * Registration of handguns? No. Police record made of purchases from dealers.

    * Licensing of owners of handguns? No. Police record made of purchases from dealers.

    * Permit to carry handguns? Yes. Police record made of purchases from dealers.


    Other Requirements

    * Is there a State waiting period? Yes. 5-day wait for handguns.

    * Is there a FBI *NICS check for firearm transactions? Handguns are checked through a state system, long guns via National Instant Check System (NICS)

    * Permit to carry a concealed weapon required? Yes.

    * Record of sale: Yes.

    *NICS - National Instant Check System
    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

    Smith & Wesson M&P9c

  8. #8
    Member Array bal_g23's Avatar
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    thanks, this might help me out and convict a (hypothetical) murderer of killing an unarmed mother!
    GUN CONTROL IS USING BOTH HANDS

    I believe its a shoulder thing that goes up - Carolyn McCarthy (D)

    The muzzle end of a .45 pretty much says go away in every language.
    -Clint Smith

  9. #9
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    I'm scratching my head trying to figure some of that out, but here you go:
    Chapter 9.41 RCW: Firearms and dangerous weapons

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bal_g23 View Post
    do you still have to go through a background check at a gun shop if you have a your CWP?
    Yes.......just no waiting period with a valid WA permit.
    Now, I don't know about the RO though.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  11. #11
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bal_g23 View Post
    Im competing in a mock trial at school. The hypothetical case is an obsessive boyfriend is left by his girlfriend. He makes threats against her life, and a month later, she gets shot in the head at an intersection. The boyfriend claims he wasn't in the city at the time. Im the prosecution attorney in the case and have a few questions for you guys that may just help me close the case this Friday.

    1 Can you get a concealed weapons permit if you have a restraining order against you?

    2 If you already have a CWP, is it revoked if you get a restraining order filed against you?

    3 If you already have a CWP, is it revoked if you get a domestic violence charge against you?

    4 Can you buy a handgun if someone has a restraining order against you?

    5 And finally, in WA state, the waiting period for handguns is 5 days. Correct?

    anything helps!
    Looking at the laws,

    1. Yes. If the RO or PO does not specifically state no firearms. From the looks of the law, there has to be the use of a firearm or threatened use of a firearm involved, then the RO or PO would state the firearms restriction. This appears to be in 9.41.070 (1)(d)

    2. Same as number 1. This appears to be in 9.41.800.

    3. No. Not until convicted. Once convicted you are ineligible to possess a firearm and there ineligible for a CPL.

    4. Possibly. If the restraining order states that the prospective buyer posses a physical threat to the child or spouse or specifically prohibits firearms possesion. You're easiest way to see this info is go to an FFL, tell them about your school project and ask to see a blank 4473. Go back a couple pages and look at the important notes part.

    5. Yes, under two conditions: the purchase is of a handgun from a dealer and the buyer does not possess a WA CPL. Private party sales are exempt as are WA CPL holders. RCW 9.41.090.

    Chapter 9.41 RCW: Firearms and dangerous weapons

  12. #12
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    This is from the 2005 Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide published by the ATF. RCW's appear to mirror this wording:

    The law prohibits persons subject
    to certain restraining orders from receiving,
    shipping, transporting or possessing
    firearms or ammunition. To
    be disabling, the restraining order
    must:
    1. specifically restrain the person
    from harassing, stalking, or threatening
    an "intimate partner" of the
    person (e.g., spouse);
    2. be issued after a hearing of
    which notice was given to the person
    and at which the person had an
    opportunity to participate; and
    3. include a finding that the person
    subject to the order represents a
    credible threat to the "intimate partner"
    or child of the "intimate partner"
    OR explicitly prohibits the use,
    attempted use, or threatened use of
    force against the partner.

  13. #13
    Member Array user's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bal_g23 View Post
    Im competing in a mock trial at school. The hypothetical case is an obsessive boyfriend is left by his girlfriend. He makes threats against her life, and a month later, she gets shot in the head at an intersection. The boyfriend claims he wasn't in the city at the time. Im the prosecution attorney in the case and have a few questions for you guys that may just help me close the case this Friday.
    ...
    It would appear from your summary that your case is entirely circumstantial. In order to succeed at trial, your evidence has to point exclusively to the idea that the defendant committed the homicide, and to no other theory. So I see your questions as pretty much irrelevant. The question is whether he did, in fact, have a gun, regardless of whether he was authorized to do so or not; was the gun of the correct caliber, was he in the city at the time of the murder (and thus lying about his whereabouts), and things like that. Who cares whether he had permission to have a concealed handgun, what's that got to do with the murder?

    And here's the kicker - even if you disprove his affirmative defense ("I wasn't in the city at the time of the murder"), you still have to prove the elements of the offense with proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I generally don't do prosecutions, because it's a lot easier to do defense: the defendant doesn't have to "win", he only has to "not lose". You, on the other hand, have to win.

    I suggest you look up what the elements of the offense are and use those as a checklist. In your closing arguments, go over each of them with the jury, explaining how the evidence the jury saw supports that particular element. At the end of all that, summarize why the defendant is definitely the killer and how there's no possible other explanation for the set of facts and circumstances provided by the evidence you've recounted.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    It would appear from your summary that your case is entirely circumstantial.
    It would appear from your reply that you're an attorney. Great advice!
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  15. #15
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    Although I have not been witness to the mock trial, the person having a CPL has no bearing on your case. Unless you have been able to prove he was in town when the killing took place he is going to be found not guilty.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

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