Great 45 minutes at the range! (Special Thanks to Sixto)

Great 45 minutes at the range! (Special Thanks to Sixto)

This is a discussion on Great 45 minutes at the range! (Special Thanks to Sixto) within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; So today was a busy day for me... Lots of errands to run on my day off and I wasn't even planning on shooting... but ...

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 52

Thread: Great 45 minutes at the range! (Special Thanks to Sixto)

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array KevinDooley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    657

    Great 45 minutes at the range! (Special Thanks to Sixto)

    So today was a busy day for me... Lots of errands to run on my day off and I wasn't even planning on shooting... but when I got home last night a box was waiting for me... My 500 rnds of 230 gr Federal HST .45 ACP ammo had arrived, even though I was told it wouldn't ship until Thursday... so what the heck, I can squeeze in enough time to fire off 100-200 rounds, right?

    Well I have never bought or used defensive rounds - just cheapo ball ammo - but since I recently started carrying I wanted to find something that would feed my 1911 well. I figured I'd try out some HST and if my 1911 was as finicky with hollow points as a friend had attempted to lead me to believe, I had a list of a few others to try...

    So I went to the range, knowing I had no time and yet still wanting to send some lead down range. I walked in, put my target up, ran it back to 10 yards or so, put all my stuff down and drew from concealment, ran the mag dry and then reloaded from both of the spares I normally carry... cleaning out the last of my ball ammo. Then I loaded up all 8 mags I own and just kept on shooting... through 150 rounds of HST with no problem whatsoever.

    While shooting I decided to try out something that Sixto had mentioned in a post regarding point shooting for defensive situations here: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...32-post13.html. I tried to do what he said and I gotta say - at 3, 10, or 15 yards I put every shot in center mass doing what he said, while still being able to see everything going on around me (in my peripheral). It was kinda cool and a lot more relaxing than the bullseye shooting I had been taught to do.

    Anyway, I walked out of the range - I was there right when they opened and was done so quickly no one else was out there yet and the guy just looked at me funny... "All done," he asked... It was amusing.

    Anyway, no point to this rant, just wanted to relate a good experience and thank Sixto for teaching me something new!
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

    The will to win is worthless if you do not have the will to prepare. -Thane Yost


  2. #2
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    20,304
    No problem, I'm glad I "opened your eyes" (pun intended!) to combat shooting. Range outings will be much more fun now, and you'll have a better chance at surviving an armed encounter.

    I'm glad I helped somebody out, enjoy your new skill!
    "Just blame Sixto"

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Michigan's U.P.
    Posts
    3,657
    Exactly, your target is in front of you, not a few hundred meters away.
    Les Baer 45
    Sig Man
    N.R.A. Patron Life Member
    M.C.R.G.O.

  4. #4
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    20,304
    Quote Originally Posted by Supertac45 View Post
    Exactly, your target is in front of you, not a few hundred meters away.
    exactly. there is no need to shoot bullseye style when people are trying to kill you... it just doesnt work that way in the real world.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array Scot Van's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Versailles, KY
    Posts
    830
    Six, do you subscribe to the 'front sight is all that matters' school of thought when at those tight distances? I've found that in close, it really doesn't make sense to line up rear sights.

    What is your take on using a laser grip for engaging a nearby target?
    A man in the hands of his enemies is flesh, and shudderingly vulnerable. - author unknown

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,103
    Don't get him started on lasers!!
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array KevinDooley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    657
    Way to go Scot! LOL... If you reference the link I posted in my original post you'll get a taste of what Sixto thinks about lasers...
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

    The will to win is worthless if you do not have the will to prepare. -Thane Yost

  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Rowlett, Texas
    Posts
    1,739
    Another reason everyone that carries concealed needs to take some kind of tactical or defensive training. Its cool the advice you can obtain here on DC.
    Psalms 144:1
    Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
    Senior Instructor for Tactical and Defensive of Texas
    http://www.tac-def-tx.com/
    CHL INSTRUCTOR
    Retired LEO
    NRA member
    TCHA member

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array AllAmerican's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chesterfield, Kakalaki del Sur
    Posts
    2,403
    Quote Originally Posted by Scot Van View Post
    Six, do you subscribe to the 'front sight is all that matters' school of thought when at those tight distances? I've found that in close, it really doesn't make sense to line up rear sights.

    What is your take on using a laser grip for engaging a nearby target?
    I know this was directed to Sixto but...

    When I took my CWP class our instructor said just this: Your eyes cannot focus on more than one thing at a time so get the sights lined up but focus on the front sight and aim COM.

    He was right.

  10. #10
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,857
    Glad you had a good time!

    I'm gonna have to be convinced that focusing on the target is faster than focusing on the front sight. This qualification is necessary: for instances/ranges where the gun is extended.

    I've done both in various schools; I have yet to see one faster than the other. What seems to happen is we change the rules. E.g. if we focus on the sights, we are expected to get those two inch groups, which of course would be slower. Then we talk about how fast target focused shooting is BUT we relax the hit expectation to anything on the threat without going back and applying the same thing to front sight focus. So if I relax the hit expectation for front sight focused shooting from that 2" COM, to anything on the target, my speed goes up.

    And I'm just talking from personal experiences I've had in classes. In one school, we were suppose to shoot as fast as we could from 15 feet. When the 'GO' command was given, without a conscious thought, I fired as fast as I could pull the trigger, thinking hey that really does work. However, the instructor walked up and said, "OK, Ron, this time without using the front sight." Soon as he said that, the guy beside me said, "Well I wondered how you were getting that tight of a group." I questioned how the instructor knew I was on the front sight when I didn't realize it - he answered to my full satisfaction. The next drill, I managed a target focused sight and as expected, was all over the place, just as the guy beside me was.

    I will say this, if you do not, can not, will not, practice focusing on the front sight, I think you'd be better off focusing on the threat and hitting what you can. Will I ever go to target focus? No, but I train diligently and frequently so that the front sight method is completely ingrained. Moreover, I only have one method to practice.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  11. #11
    Member Array rappa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Florida USA
    Posts
    50

    Thumbs up I hear ya!

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinDooley View Post
    ... so what the heck, I can squeeze in enough time to fire off 100-200 rounds, right?

    Anyway, I walked out of the range - I was there right when they opened and was done so quickly no one else was out there yet and the guy just looked at me funny... "All done," he asked... It was amusing.

    Anyway, no point to this rant, just wanted to relate a good experience and thank Sixto for teaching me something new!
    I'm with ya! Nothing like a short and productive range session! Sometimes you get more done inside 45min than you do in an hour or so! Plus I like having the range to myself or just a couple of shooters instead of a packed house!
    Watch your six!

  12. #12
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    20,304
    Quote Originally Posted by Scot Van View Post
    Six, do you subscribe to the 'front sight is all that matters' school of thought when at those tight distances? I've found that in close, it really doesn't make sense to line up rear sights.

    What is your take on using a laser grip for engaging a nearby target?
    Lasers... Thats all I need to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Don't get him started on lasers!!
    I won't go into my usual tirade on lasers. Enough was said.

    Quote Originally Posted by AllAmerican View Post
    I know this was directed to Sixto but...

    When I took my CWP class our instructor said just this: Your eyes cannot focus on more than one thing at a time so get the sights lined up but focus on the front sight and aim COM.

    He was right.
    Yup, thats a good method. As you perfect it and become "one with your pistol" It soon becomes second nature and you wont even need your sights... but thats far down the road. As cheesy as that sounds, it really does happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post

    And I'm just talking from personal experiences I've had in classes. In one school, we were suppose to shoot as fast as we could from 15 feet. When the 'GO' command was given, without a conscious thought, I fired as fast as I could pull the trigger, thinking hey that really does work. However, the instructor walked up and said, "OK, Ron, this time without using the front sight." Soon as he said that, the guy beside me said, "Well I wondered how you were getting that tight of a group." I questioned how the instructor knew I was on the front sight when I didn't realize it - he answered to my full satisfaction. The next drill, I managed a target focused sight and as expected, was all over the place, just as the guy beside me was.
    Robin is right Ron, but it takes a while to perfect it. Its something that can be taught in a class, but it takes range time to perfect. Those groups will shrink in time if you stick with it.
    The front sight method is a good way to combat shoot, and probably 90% of real combat shooters use it. The really good ones shoot instictive though.

    Here is another tip; dont spend hours on end on the range when practicing any new method. Take a box of ammo with you and a half hour is all you need. Hit the basics, run a few mags of combat shooting, then end with basics again. You'll progress a lot faster this way.
    Most guys equate shooting a few hundred rounds in one session a good range trip. I contest that you do more harm than good doing that. The focus begins to shift towards burning up ammo and time rather than quality, every trigger pull counts.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #13
    Senior Moderator
    Array pgrass101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13,625
    While I say I point shoot what a really do is aquire a fast sight picture of my front sight.

    I do have to agree with the above, that which ever method you use practice it and they both work out to being just as fast.
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

  14. #14
    Member Array Superman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Oklahoma in January...
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Yup, thats a good method. As you perfect it and become "one with your pistol" It soon becomes second nature and you wont even need your sights... but thats far down the road. As cheesy as that sounds, it really does happen.
    I had heard this before but this weekend at the range I had the opportunity to see it in action.
    A retired LEO in the lane next to my daughter and was plugging the bullseye round after round. You could have set a half dollar over his 10+ holes in his smurfman target.

    No sights, just pull up from resting position and BANG. Dead smurf.
    I spit out three rounds of brass due to my jaw hitting the floor.
    [I]They make a desert and call it peace - Calgacus
    We're all just a bunch of Right Wing Racist Republican Homophobes - Rush L.
    ___________________________________

  15. #15
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,857
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    ... Robin is right Ron, but it takes a while to perfect it. Its something that can be taught in a class, but it takes range time to perfect. Those groups will shrink in time if you stick with it.
    The exact same thing can be said for a flash sight picture - "Those groups will shrink in time if you stick with it." If you have any doubt about the effectiveness of a flash sight picture in rapid fire drills, ask Brownie - he's seen me shoot.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    ... The front sight method is a good way to combat shoot, and probably 90% of real combat shooters use it. The really good ones shoot instictive though...
    I shoot mostly instinctively. My instinct comes from years of practice shooting from a flash sight picture. That shouldn't be mistaken to mean it takes many years for it to become instinctive, it just takes some consistent practice for a period of time that varys with the individual.

    I believe there is a very inaccurate misconception that a flash sight picture cannot be instinctive or fast.

    Also I've seen many people learn to shoot with the sights, and get into the instinctive mode and start missing. When reminded to use the flash sight picture, they start hitting again. Of course in the setting, we were looking at COM hits in about an 8 inch diameter circle, not just any where on the target AND where an extension can be achieved.

    I can hit a target in a target focused mode relatively well, but I never, never practice it. The ability comes from the years I've spent using flash sight pictures. What I suspect comes with a flash sight picture, esp. at slower speeds, is very precise indexing of the gun. The mind sees this over, and over, and over. Not only does it become instinctive, the mind has memorized muscle motions and gun profiles superimposed on the threat that enables the mind to align the gun even if you didn't have sights.

    E.g. I can draw and fire a gun in about 0.92 or seconds. At Blackwater we were timed on five draw and fires from seven yards. My best was 0.98 seconds drawing a 92FS DA/SA. All the hits were in the COM. That's not especially fast, but none of the other 16 students beat the time and that included some very avid competition shooters using Glocks. I'm a bit faster with a Glock.

    I guess the question is, did I focus on the front sight in order to achieve this? Well, I honestly don't know. It is possible that I shot without using a flash sight picture, but since I never practice anything but a flash sight picture, it seems much more reasonable to believe that I actually used a flash sight picture.

    But, how do we explain that? I shoot instinctively, seems like the only answer. I focus on the front sight instinctively and I pull the trigger instinctively. I see the sight for as long or little as I need to, to achieve the level of accuracy I need.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Chief Special 45 (CS45) at the range
    By ArmyCop in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: September 22nd, 2010, 12:40 PM
  2. Great day at the range!
    By Camjr in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: January 3rd, 2010, 06:13 PM
  3. Graf's has a deal on .38 Special Range Ammo
    By Landric in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: July 25th, 2009, 07:06 PM
  4. Charter Arms 3" .44 Special Range Trip
    By j21blackjack in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: January 17th, 2009, 05:19 PM
  5. Range Report - Colt Cobra .38 Special
    By Captain Crunch in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: September 3rd, 2007, 12:35 PM