FL Law...carrying with property owner's permission...a Debate

FL Law...carrying with property owner's permission...a Debate

This is a discussion on FL Law...carrying with property owner's permission...a Debate within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Maybe not the exact right place, but this Forum has no Law category. Anyway, on a another forum a member & I have been going ...

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Thread: FL Law...carrying with property owner's permission...a Debate

  1. #1
    Member Array flaboatbum's Avatar
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    FL Law...carrying with property owner's permission...a Debate

    Maybe not the exact right place, but this Forum has no Law category. Anyway, on a another forum a member & I have been going round and round about his insistant claim that any property owner (including bars) can hand out what he calls "permission slips" allowing anyone to carry on that property even without a CCL? He claims that even the owner of a RV Park could hand out these slips to all the tenants allowing them to carry as well.

    I tried to use another debate example of what I think is his flawed interpretation of FL property owner's rights are; imagine the owner of a slum grocery store being able to hand out "permission slips" to his gangsta neighbors and pals to hang out at his store armed without CCLs? The poster says he has a permission slip from a bar owner friend thus allowing him to carry in that bar even though he is not an employee.

    The poster has provided NO Statutory info to back up his immovable, cast-in-stone opinion. Because this Forum is far more active, I thought some feedback would help. Thanks


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    So far as I know, homeowners and business owners are covered by statutes to carry defensive firearms at their homes and places of business, but to my knowledge there are no statutes that allow assignment of "owner" status to visiting neighbors, friends, staff. I doubt it.

    Can someone find such a thing in the FLA statutes? What about open carry, which wouldn't require a state CHL, with the owner's permission?

    Your friend, did he/she just believe it to be true, or did he/she offer up a specific Florida statute that does this?

    Check FLA 790.053, 790.025 and 790.06: click.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  3. #3
    Member Array flaboatbum's Avatar
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    He's convinced it's true

    NO "proof" offered by the other debater. I scoured FL Satutes and found nothing to validate his opinion. It troubles me because he is handing out his opinion as gospel and a long time poster on that forum. A case of not always believing legal opinions on the Internet.

  4. #4
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    Sounds like he's going by something he was told, by the friend of a friend, whose great aunts, second cousin twice removed heard from a reliable source. That has got to make it legal!

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    Sounds as legal as those Federal concealed carry permits issued by the old man down the street.

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    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
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    While I would not accept this as gospel, there is a common-law presumption that a property owner has the right to allow things on their property that are not legal in "public".

    add to that, most laws against concealed carry of firearms refer to carrying in public and specifically mention that the prohibition does not apply to someone on their own property. Part and parcel with this (though rarely spelled out in concealed carry statutes) is the right of the owner of said land to grant permission to anyone he chooses..

    So, your debate opposition is probably correct - in general. the question would then be whether that owner's rights change if the property in question is private land, his home, or a business. And if a business, if the business owns that land and building or is simply renting it.

    For example: here is North Carolina, a property owners may give permission to anyone to carry concealed on their property as NC laws against concealed carry do not apply if: "The person is on the person's own premises"

    BUT, in NC, it is recognized that under common-law property rights owner can extend that protection through explicit permission.

    Another example. It is NOT illegal to carry concealed on your own property while drinking alcohol, because the ban on drinking while carrying only applies to carrying under the auspices of a permit.

    As I said, I wouldn't take this as gospel, but it is the lgeal theory that underpins your opponent's positions. In some states, business premises are handled very different from residential premises.

  7. #7
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    There is no such thing as "permission slips" in Florida Law regarding firearms. The expansion of the Castle Doctrine provides that you can CCW wherever you are legally.

    The poster says he has a permission slip from a bar owner friend thus allowing him to carry in that bar even though he is not an employee.
    Tell the poster that he is violation of Florida Statutes

    790.06 License to carry concealed weapon or firearm.--(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into ....any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

    The owner cannot go above Florida Law

    He claims that even the owner of a RV Park could hand out these slips to all the tenants allowing them to carry as well.
    I might be wrong, but RV parks would be treated as rentals and thus you can carry the same as in any apartment a person can rent. No Permit Slip needed. You have your CCW you should be OK until you get trespassed.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^ Miggy is correct as usual.

    There are places that weapons (concealed and even non-concealed) are just not allowed. Bars are one of those. Unless you are on-duty law enforcement you better not have a concealed or open weapon inside a bar or night club serving alcohol.

    If you are on any private property of any kind it is legal to carry your weapon concealed if you are legally allowed to be there to begin with. If the property owner doesnt want you carrying a weapon on the property all he can do is have you leave or come back unarmed. This you must comply with or have trespassing or felony trespassing charges against you.

    This does not apply to rental property. Rental property that you reside upon for the purpose of "housing", in a way, "belongs to you" as long as you are paying. You have the same rights on this property to carry your weapon concealed and to defend yourself and family as you would if you were on property that you actually did own.

    You may carry openly inside or on anyones private property or private business so long as the business owner approves. Private property is private property and the rules and laws that apply to PUBLIC places . . . . do not apply to PRIVATE property as long as that private property is not deemed a place of nuisance.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
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  9. #9
    Member Array flaboatbum's Avatar
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    Update...an experts opinion

    I emailed Jon Gutmacher Esq this afternoon...Florida's @1 acknowledged gun law attorney/author To my surprise he answered within an hour...on a Sunday no less.

    "It's an interesting issue -- and while I think there's much to be said from a wishful thinking side for the gentleman's position -- he is legally wrong. The only exceptions to carry without a CWP in Florida are pursuant to F.S. 790.25 - and the Legislature has not authorized private persons to authorize others to carry on their property. Constitutionally speaking -- he has an argument -- but whether he'd win or lose would involve a legal battle -- and his guests would still be subject to prosecution. On the other hand, unless there was an accident -- it's doubtful law enforcement would be involved, and who would care?

    jhg


    The debater is claiming that these so-called "permission slips" allow non CCW holders to carry anywhere they have property owner's permission. As far as the RV Park question....of course inside the residence (Castle) no problem, BUT the poster was claiming the tenants could wander the grounds armed, CCW or not!

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    I say no way.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^ Miggy is correct as usual.
    .
    Can I give you my wife's email address? She holds the opinion that I am never right about anything

    flaboatbum, lots of thanks for your effort. If there is somebody we must pay attention in Florida regarding CCW is Mr. Gutmacher.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    Can I give you my wife's email address? She holds the opinion that I am never right about anything
    Sure!
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004

  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flaboatbum View Post
    I emailed Jon Gutmacher Esq this afternoon...Florida's @1 acknowledged gun law attorney/author To my surprise he answered within an hour...on a Sunday no less.

    "It's an interesting issue -- and while I think there's much to be said from a wishful thinking side for the gentleman's position -- he is legally wrong. The only exceptions to carry without a CWP in Florida are pursuant to F.S. 790.25 - and the Legislature has not authorized private persons to authorize others to carry on their property. Constitutionally speaking -- he has an argument -- but whether he'd win or lose would involve a legal battle -- and his guests would still be subject to prosecution. On the other hand, unless there was an accident -- it's doubtful law enforcement would be involved, and who would care?

    jhg


    The debater is claiming that these so-called "permission slips" allow non CCW holders to carry anywhere they have property owner's permission. As far as the RV Park question....of course inside the residence (Castle) no problem, BUT the poster was claiming the tenants could wander the grounds armed, CCW or not!
    Mr. Guttmacher's reply looks to be dealing with the bar issue not the RV park issue.

    If an owner of an RV park, which is private property not public, says his tenants may carry weapons, open or concealed, then they are legally allowed to carry them. Its not any different than if you were at your "uncles" property shooting your .22 rifle. If you wanted to carry your sidearm openly on his property or concealed, it is legal to do.
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004

  14. #14
    Member Array flaboatbum's Avatar
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    This is getting interesting. The way I see it is that an RV Park IS a lot different than plinking at an "uncle's" rural farm. IF it's OK at an RV Park, then it is OK at a privaty owned Apt Complex or a slum neighborhood grocery store (or private back yard) without a CWP...and the list could go on ad nauseim? There must be a line in the sand at some point, otherwise CWP laws are like a lion with no teeth. The property owner's permitees have no background checks or the hoops CWL holders have to jump through. So much for law abiding citizens checked by the state....only check in this scenario is a property owner who himself may not be eligible for a CWL. That couldn't possibly be correct IMO.

    Mr Gutmacher's reply mentions FS 790.25
    2) USES NOT AUTHORIZED.--

    (a) This section does not authorize carrying a concealed weapon without a permit, as prohibited by ss. 790.01 and 790.02.


    FS 790.01 and 790.02 read
    790.01 Carrying concealed weapons.--

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (4), a person who carries a concealed weapon or electric weapon or device on or about his or her person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

    (2) A person who carries a concealed firearm on or about his or her person commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    (3) This section does not apply to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm pursuant to the provisions of s. 790.06.


    Here is the web site showing the entire Staute text:

    Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Well, I have friends who manage an RV Park. From what I'm told that they are on the same legal basis as a hotel/motel. They rent space on a temporary basis it's just that people bring their own rooms. Police have always dealt with them when they have a tennant problem using the same statutes that would apply to a motel as well.

    Interpret that how you choose.
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