Do you s'pose the rumors are true - Page 3

Do you s'pose the rumors are true

This is a discussion on Do you s'pose the rumors are true within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Not taken as a flame; I have read them. But, the funny thing is after it's all said and done, the ammo that ranks high ...

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 55

Thread: Do you s'pose the rumors are true

  1. #31
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Not taken as a flame; I have read them. But, the funny thing is after it's all said and done, the ammo that ranks high in the M&S "research", also ranks high in other "research". All seem to agree that the premium JHP ammo from major manufacturers work well.

    And again, not defending the M&S method, conclusions, etc. but merely observing consistency with other studies, etc.; the M&S data indicate the 9mm, .357 sig, .40 cal., .45 ACP, and .357 mag have comparable ability to stop a fight. Most "authorities" find/claim the same thing.


  2. #32
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Ex,
    I am totally confused by:
    "...I'm not questioning YOU, Tangle. But there are so many wannabe SEALs that there is a special website to insure the frauds are outed!...

    What's confusing me is that after that you go on to emphasize how much training SEALS get, which is exactly the point I was trying to make. SEALS are well trained with a handgun, while the Army troops for the most part are poorly trained, if at all. My point was that the SEALs, because of their good training, get good shot placement and good results. The poorly trained "troops" get poor placement and poor results.

    Then,
    "...That's why I find it difficult to believe this SEAL spoke of the Mozambique..."

    On the chance that that refers to the SEAL I referred to, I could be wrong but I don't believe that two to the COM and one to the head is a Mozambique drill. Isn't the Mozambique drill starting 10 yards away from three targets and putting two rounds to the COM of each target and then one to the head of each?

    In any event, the point being made was that two COM and a head shot is not caliber sensitive, well with regard to 9mm or .45 ACP. Also that the SEALs that use 9mm don't seem to be disgruntled with the caliber.

  3. #33
    OD*
    OD* is offline
    Moderator
    Array OD*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Coopersville
    Posts
    11,348
    Mozambique drill
    http://www.thegunzone.com/lore.html

    El Presidente and Variations

    El Presidente was designed by Jeff Cooper as a rough benchmark of handgun skills. It is probably the most widely known handgun standard around.

    Setup: three IPSC targets, spaced one yard apart, 10 yards distant.

    Starting Position: gun holstered, spare magazine on belt, hands held above shoulders (surrender position), facing away (180 degrees) from targets.

    Drill: At the signal, turn and draw, firing two shots into the A-zone of each target. Reload, and fire two more shots into each target.

    As originally specified, the drill only counts if all shots are in the A-zone. A missed A-zone counts as a missed target. But when shot in competition, all hits on the target usually count, with standard IPSC comstock scoring.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  4. #34
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    OD,

    Thanks! I was confusing the Mozambique with El Presidente.

  5. #35
    OD*
    OD* is offline
    Moderator
    Array OD*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Coopersville
    Posts
    11,348
    You're welcome, it's easy to do.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802

    El Presidente is not the Mozambique

    Quote Originally Posted by OD
    Jeff Cooper started circulating the Mozambique some time after he designed the El Presidente course of fire. Today the Mozambique is more in line with the LEO "Failure to Stop" drill. Two to the chest...assess...and one to the head. Although I think, IIRC, that Cooper picked up the term Mozambique in reference to African merc operations.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #37
    OD*
    OD* is offline
    Moderator
    Array OD*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Coopersville
    Posts
    11,348
    El Presidente is not the Mozambique
    I know, he explains that in the link I posted.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array maclean3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    3,085
    Thanks guys, I always wondered what the Mozambique drill was. Was actually going to post that question later today.
    Jack

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802

    Cool Trying to clarify...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    Ex,
    I am totally confused by:
    "...I'm not questioning YOU, Tangle. But there are so many wannabe SEALs that there is a special website to insure the frauds are outed!...

    What's confusing me is that after that you go on to emphasize how much training SEALS get, which is exactly the point I was trying to make. SEALS are well trained with a handgun, while the Army troops for the most part are poorly trained, if at all. My point was that the SEALs, because of their good training, get good shot placement and good results. The poorly trained "troops" get poor placement and poor results. I think I made a point of marking a distinction between army troops who carry a sidearm as a primary or secondary weapon. Troops who have to qualify semi-annually with the hangun will do so in the three levels: Marksman, Sharpshooter and Expert, right? Most who know they may have to defend themselves up close with a pistol will try to score expert. Unless they're a recent product of the public schools...in which case they'll handle it like it was a live King Cobra!

    Then, "...That's why I find it difficult to believe this SEAL spoke of the Mozambique..."

    On the chance that that refers to the SEAL I referred to, I could be wrong but I don't believe that two to the COM and one to the head is a Mozambique drill. Isn't the Mozambique drill starting 10 yards away from three targets and putting two rounds to the COM of each target and then one to the head of each?Why would a SEAL go two to COM when they're trained (5000 rds a week!) for the head shot? I'm questioning if this was a real SEAL (unless you know him personally, in which case I humbly apologize to you and to him!) See my post and OD's concerning the difference between Mozambique and El Presidente

    In any event, the point being made was that two COM and a head shot is not caliber sensitive, well with regard to 9mm or .45 ACP. Also that the SEALs that use 9mm don't seem to be disgruntled with the caliber.
    No, they went to the Sig Sauer P226 because they had a problem with the slides cracking on the M9's. But SEALs also use the S&W M66 .357 and have been known to use the SOCOM MK21. That's one reason I give credence to the story I quoted about the TORA BORA operation.

    But there is still plenty of evidence from the "Operators" that shot for shot in body mass that does not include hits on the central nervous system, the 9mm leaves a bit to be desired whereas the 45 seems to be more effective. At least where it comes to the standard of 230gr ball and whatever the standard weight ball ammo is used for the 9mm.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  10. #40
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    Ex,

    I think his point was that he was very confident in the 9mm with good shot placement and the two to the COM and one to the head was just one of many options he had available.

    As for Army handgun qualifying I'll have to confirm this, but the solder I talked to didn't say anything about having to qualify with his handgun. In fact, he strongly insinuated they barely got to shoot their handguns at all. The ones I personally saw shoot a handgun were very poor shots.

    All I was saying was that we may not have as much a caliber issue as a training issue. It would be nice if somebody would compile all the data and show conclusively that one caliber is better than all others. But, I haven't heard of such a study or conclusions.

    "...plenty of evidence from the "Operators" that shot for shot in body mass that does not include hits on the central nervous system, the 9mm leaves a bit to be desired whereas the 45 seems to be more effective..."

    Well clearly there's the problem - many of us have not seen this body of evidence, I know I haven't. I didn't even realize it was available. Any chance that we can see this?
    Last edited by Tangle; January 31st, 2006 at 03:04 PM.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Away - Health Problems
    Posts
    17,352
    ill throw gas on the fire ..lol

    Ill still take a 45 and be happy with it and a 9mm also .. I know my shooting is good

    Do i feel as confident with the 9 as i would a 45 no but thats why my 9 carries 18 rounds 8 of 45 is good 16 10mm is better ..

    Got to rember no matter what you do you cant convince someone who is set against the ideal a lesser caliber 9mm in this matter is good ..

    Ive read tons about it saying how great it is blah blah blah ... But i still cant bring myself to totally trust it .. 8 rounds of 45 never broke a sweat was sure it would do the just just wanted more rounds...

    No one will convince me or probley Ex for that matter 9mm is better for what its worth in all the written stuff youll find 357 Magnum is still one of the highest rated cartridges..

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802

    Thumbs up Well said, Bud!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud White
    No one will convince me or probably Ex for that matter 9mm is better for what its worth in all the written stuff you'll find 357 Magnum is still one of the highest rated cartridges..
    LOL AMEN Bud! I own two 9mm's and they're both superb weapons. In an emergency I'd feel well armed with either of them. But in a situation where I have the ability and time to choose, I'll take the 40 or 45. I'm not trying to change anybody elses mind either, this is good natured discourse for all concerned....or it should be. Nobody should feel "attacked" or flamed or anything. If I've given any offense, I apologize.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Away - Health Problems
    Posts
    17,352
    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    LOL AMEN Bud! I own two 9mm's and they're both superb weapons. In an emergency I'd feel well armed with either of them. But in a situation where I have the ability and time to choose, I'll take the 40 or 45. I'm not trying to change anybody elses mind either, this is good natured discourse for all concerned....or it should be. Nobody should feel "attacked" or flamed or anything. If I've given any offense, I apologize.

    only reason i bought a 9mm was mrs like the subcompact and said she might get lic to carry never did so i packed it ...


    Then she said hey the glock 9 with all them rounds looks sweet buy one...

    Never thought about a 40 till just recently ive always been a 45 man in autopistols

  14. #44
    Senior Moderator
    Array Tangle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Chattanooga
    Posts
    9,827
    When I look at a 9mm round next to a .45 round, to me it's a no-brainer -- that big ole .45 ought to be clearly superior in man stopping power.

    But when it comes to the real world, for some reason that huge difference in cartridge size doesn't show up in performance. To wit, as a challenge to all of us, let's try to come up with some documented evidence that ANY round of 9mm, .357 sig, .40 cal., .357 mag and .45 has been proven conclusively better than the other.

    Why do you suppose the 9mm/.45 discussions never end? Because nobody has been able to prove consistent superiority of one bullet over another. If they did, this discussion would be over at that point. It is significant that no one can produce a study that shows a .45 is truly superior to a 9mm. In fact, in one study that Ernst Langdon was involved with while training at Quantico, they found the 9mm actually had some edge over the .45.

    When I talked to Ernst about caliber and I made the comment that it seems like I should be carrying my Sig 220 instead of my Sig 226, he disagreed, based on studies he has been involved with. He's one reason I carry a 9mm.

    As for the military, based on my contacts with soldiers, reading comments from soldiers who have actually been there, the Beretta is a fine gun that got a bad name from inferior magazines. A seargent leading a squad of five in Iraq wrote me and said their guns weren't feeding correctly after the first few shots, what can they do?

    I contacted Wolff Gunsprings and talked to them about mag springs. They immediately confirmed that the magazines were the problem and said that they had already sent 200 of their +10% springs (no charge) to Iraq. They sent me, no charge, ten +10% springs so I could send them to the squad in Iraq. The non-Beretta magazine (low bid) is so bad that the +10% springs only help, but doesn't fix the problem. I am unaware of ANY reliability problems with the Beretta pistol using Beretta mags.

    As for the troop claiming the 9mm doesn't have the same stopping power, who said it? How many rounds did they fire? How many were significant hits? How did they determine that a .45 under the exact same conditions would have performed better?

    Actually, I think what the real issue is, is that they they get little handgun training and hence they shoot handguns poorly which undoubtedly would lead to the conclusion that the problem is a gun or ammo problem. I would seriously doubt if the same guys used a .45 they would have significantly better results.

    Then look at the Texas LEO experience. When they gave up their .45s for .357 Sig, their qualifying scores went way up. The Tennessee Highway Patrol just upgraded their 9mms to .357 sigs. They could have gone to .45, why didn't they? The Air Marshalls chose the .357 sig over the .45, why? SEALs use 9mm, again why?

    These discussions only exist because of the lack of evidence that one round is superior to another. Once again, if you know of any specific body of evidence that you can present, I'd love to see it.

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802
    Somebody was asking if this was true or speculation. Check THIS out: http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htw.../20060127.aspx

    Here is the text:

    U.S. Brings Back the .45
    January 27, 2006: After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as “official alternatives” to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.

    The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense plans to buy 645,000 JCPs. The competition could get intense with an order this size, and there are already some good .45 caliber designs out there, including a SOCOM version of the Heckler and Koch USP. The U.S. Marine Corps uses an upgraded version of the M1911, and were also looking at new .45 caliber designs.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Glock rumors...
    By Barbary in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: October 8th, 2009, 10:30 PM
  2. Lousiana and Florida Reciprocity Rumors
    By John Luttrel in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: September 3rd, 2009, 06:41 PM
  3. XDm Rumors?
    By ConcealedXDm in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: August 30th, 2009, 09:17 PM
  4. Ammo shortage rumors
    By Tally XD in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: February 9th, 2009, 05:48 PM
  5. How rumors get started...
    By limatunes in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: April 6th, 2007, 03:52 AM