Do you s'pose the rumors are true - Page 4

Do you s'pose the rumors are true

This is a discussion on Do you s'pose the rumors are true within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Tangle Why do you suppose the 9mm/.45 discussions never end? Because nobody has been able to prove consistent superiority of one bullet ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Smile Perception is everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    Why do you suppose the 9mm/.45 discussions never end? Because nobody has been able to prove consistent superiority of one bullet over another. Ex: Good point.

    As for the military, based on my contacts with soldiers, reading comments from soldiers who have actually been there, the Beretta is a fine gun that got a bad name from inferior magazines. I am unaware of ANY reliability problems with the Beretta pistol using Beretta mags. Ex: I haven't had any problems with MY M92 and it's mags. But I'm not using it under combat conditions, either.

    As for the troop claiming the 9mm doesn't have the same stopping power, who said it? How many rounds did they fire? How many were significant hits? How did they determine that a .45 under the exact same conditions would have performed better? Well, enough folks have said it that the USMC and SOCOM seem to have taken the "official" action of offering the 45 as an acceptable alternative.

    Actually, I think what the real issue is, is that they they get little handgun training and hence they shoot handguns poorly which undoubtedly would lead to the conclusion that the problem is a gun or ammo problem. I would seriously doubt if the same guys used a .45 they would have significantly better results.

    Then look at the Texas LEO experience. When they gave up their .45s for .357 Sig, their qualifying scores went way up. The Tennessee Highway Patrol just upgraded their 9mms to .357 sigs. They could have gone to .45, why didn't they? The Air Marshalls chose the .357 sig over the .45, why? SEALs use 9mm, again why?

    Ex: As far as the Air Marshall program goes, I think this is a B-I-G mistake and might have been the result of a marketing campaign rather than concrete tests. The 357 sig is waaaay too LOUD and waaaay too overpenetrative for an airliner. Even with frangible ammo, which is what they're using, IIRC and given the number of folks on this forum who think that Glaser and MagSafe is all hype, what does that say about such a decision? Part of that decision making process IMHO, included a mindset that the troops had to start thinking about combat and LE work from the perspective of the 21st century rather than the era of ummmmm 1911.

    These discussions only exist because of the lack of evidence that one round is superior to another. Once again, if you know of any specific body of evidence that you can present, I'd love to see it.
    See the link I provided as to the execution of the replacements. It seems as if it's going to happen. This I think is a product of the most powerful force in warfare, business or politics....PERCEPTION.

    I prefer the 45 unswervingly over the 9mm because I perceive that it will be superior in a hostile encounter. Yet were I armed with a 9mm, I would not feel defenseless. I would rely on my training and experience to win the day regardless of the caliber I used. The troops aren't getting satisfactory stops because of a perception that the round is inferior, instead of a hard self assessment that their training might be deficient. The chain of command refuses to acknowledge that training might be deficient, which would be a direct cause of KIA's and that would have negative public reactions and potential political fallout. Solution? "Upgrade" the equipment.

    This could also be a residual effect, even a backlash of "American Nationalism." The 9mm is a product of european firearms makers. In accepting the NATO round as the US standard, there might have been a perception that we as a nation were turning our backs on our own heritage that had so successfully seen us through so many global conflicts to victory. Thus a rejection of the 9mm might be seen as a return to the roots of Americanism and it might not have much to do with the effectiveness of the round, since you yourself (Tangle) posited that effective hits (or the lack of) are what they are, regardless of caliber.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    A Parable

    My father was by trade an electrical engineer.

    One day, when I was about 9 I think, he had a crew foreman come into his office and describe a load that they were going to be running off of one of his power lines. He listened carefully and said to foreman.

    "Well, it sounds to me like you've already got it figured out."

    The crewman shook his head and explained his conundrum.

    "But I don't know if I should use the smaller cable or the larger cable. I think the smaller one should do it, but they might need the larger one."

    My father looked back at him and simply said this:

    "Then use the larger one since we can be more certain it'll do the job. Let's do it right the first time."

    Now I don't know if the dialog went like that exactly, but that's the gist of it.

    At this point the crew foreman was perplexed and slightly upset and my dad asked him why. And he said where are the tests, the equations, the printouts? Where are the charts and graphs and notes and spec sheets of these products? Why aren't you doing more work than this to make this decision rather than just saying use the bigger cable and be done with it?

    My dad looked back at him and said the same thing again. "Because I know with more certainty the bigger cable will handle the load better."

    (FYI I've been carrying a 9mm pistol while waiting for my holsters to show up... but FWIW...)

  3. #48
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    Two watermelon farmers were driving their crop to market and one said to the other, "I just figured our costs and selling price and we're not making any money." The other says, "What do you think we need to do?" He thought for a moment and replied, "We need to get a bigger truck."

    If it isn't a caliber problem, changing calibers won't help. I talked to a guy that's been there and done that for many years and trained troops. He says that for the most part if the soldier understands how the gun works and can make it shoot, that's his training. The soldiers I took shooting say the same thing.

    Then there remains the issue that when Texas LE went from the .45 to the .357 sig, there qualification scores went up dramatically and I've heard little if any complaint about stopping power.

    This won't seem right, but I'm not real confident the "military" knows what works. They went from the .45 to the 9mm to the .45; from the 30-06 to the .308 to the .223 and now they don't seem to know what to use.

    OTOH, the FBI has done extensive testing and I'm not sure they know what works. They first adopted the 10mm, and that didn't work out so they went to the .40 cal. in Glock and I think Sig except for the HRTs that went to 1911 in .45.

    If there was a definitive advantage, seems like with all this testing, we ought to know what it is by now. Probably the most dominate round in LE is the .40 cal.

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    This was just posted on the board of my IDPA club in discussing this same topic. I found it interesting enough to cut and paste it here.
    __________________________________________________
    This was to be expected - Yes troops are going to complain about "stopping" power - The problem is (and now that I've been shooting w/the club I've become really aware of this) is that they are not addressing the issue of basic marksmanship - Many Soldiers just like many lay civilians are under the impression that there does exist a magic bullet that will take care of all their problems - That if you hit someone in the shoulder this "magic" bullet will put them down for good...Let me share with you how they aka we come to this conclusion:

    1-Military qualification (US Army) I can't talk about the other services - Are designed to shot from 25meters out to 300 meters - on hydraulically operated targets - Now if you can even SEE the 300 target and hit it on the upper shoulder it will go down immediately - Thus considered a "kill" The same goes for the 25 meter target. You never really go down range to check up on your targets.

    2-TV - People are accustomed (and soldiers as well) to seeing people dropped dead in their tracks by that one magical bullet - Rarely do you ever see in a movie someone perform a failure drill/Mozambique on someone.

    3-Motivation - Why do they people believe that as the "good guy' that the bad guys should automatically fall down and play dead when they are shot? They are just as motivated to get us as we are to get them - So you shoot someone in the arm/shoulder/etc - If they are motivated, they'll just keep on coming - The same would be true if it were reverse.

    So you put these 3 factors together, and you have a whole slew of people believing that there is a "magic" bullet aka .45 calibre that can do the job -

    I bet in NONE of those reports will they ever mention shot placement, failure drills, shooting them until they are no longer a threat, bill drills,etc....

    I'll even throw this one out - People in the Spec Ops (SOCOM) community who really want to hone their skills, actually join local IDPA clubs to increase their weapon/marksmanship proficiency and LEARN.

    If any one of these Spec Ops operators is honest with you, he will also tell you that the average IDPA shooter, will give him a run for his money. If you don't believe me, ask any of the members who's been to a regional match, that had in attendance Soldiers from any of the SF groups - Humbling experience to say the least.

    I bet rifle/pistol marksmanship scores won't go up one bit.
    _______________________________________________

    ExSoldier, again: As I said: Perception is everything.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  5. #50
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    Euc,

    I understand, but we don't know that the bigger is better when it's between the 9mm and .45ACP; if so, when did we find out?

    Ex,
    A follow-up on your posts; this is NOT me:

    "I've got 18+ years of service in the Army and experience w/ the M9, including training military personnel over the last few years in its use...

    ...Poorly trained troops who use it then blame anything that goes wrong on the weapon. I've spent a number of years training military personnel how to shoot. You'd be appalled at their unbelievable lack of handgun skills...

    It calls for a .45, which I personally think is a huge mistake b/c they are hoping for the magic bullet solution for what remains, in my mind, a training issue. Army people can't shoot a 9mm Beretta now, they won't be able to effectively shoot a .45..."

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array Wayne's Avatar
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    I thought they went with the 9mm due to the higher cap. magazines. With Sig, Glock, and HK having .45's with 12+ rounds now, keeping the 9mm for just a few shots more may just not be worth it anylonger.

    The only problem that I foresee is for Women Soldiers with small hands (and some men).

    Wayne

  7. #52
    Ex Member Array BigEd63's Avatar
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    My opion is if your in the combat arms part of the military then you'd best be able to handle all the combat arms in your MOS or get into a support MOS or get out all together.

    And that means spending extra time with your weapons beyond the regular training schedule if at all possible.

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    ...As far as the Air Marshall program goes, I think this is a B-I-G mistake and might have been the result of a marketing campaign rather than concrete tests. The 357 sig is waaaay too LOUD and waaaay too overpenetrative for an airliner. ...
    I think you are right about perception. According to a forensic ballistician I know at the Va. State Police lab, here, the VSP and Richmond Police are seeing 14"-16" of penetration, routinely, with premium JHP ammo in 357SIG. They are not seeing the overpenetration you claim. This is all I shoot, and I'm not seeing the overpenetration. Call it loud, but I maintain that it is equivalent in noise to premium defensive ammo in .40 S&W. Frankly, any unmuffled handgun round going off inside an airliner is going to be painfully loud.

    Besides, we all know that the only realistic cartridge of the future for the JCP is the 357SIG, because it turns everything to vegetable paste for 6" around the POI. You could verify this, too, if it didn't knock a body 20 yards before it let the body fall. And don't forget the handy airliner test: where the 357SIG takes down a 757 from two miles. And the flame-thrower effect of the muzzle blast makes 12ga dragonbreath rounds obsolete. Of course, what I like best is how the 357SIG bullets expand to 10 times their original size while gaining mass on the way through.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom357
    Besides, we all know that the only realistic cartridge of the future for the JCP is the 357SIG, because it turns everything to vegetable paste for 6" around the POI. You could verify this, too, if it didn't knock a body 20 yards before it let the body fall. And don't forget the handy airliner test: where the 357SIG takes down a 757 from two miles. And the flame-thrower effect of the muzzle blast makes 12ga dragonbreath rounds obsolete. Of course, what I like best is how the 357SIG bullets expand to 10 times their original size while gaining mass on the way through.
    WOW I want one!

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Well if the 357 sig can do all that tom i thinks i need at least 2 of um

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