This is a discussion on Green Ammo?? Tree Huggers Strike Again within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I don't know about the tree hugger part but I switched to all copper saboted bullets for my muzzle loader and for my 12 gauge ...
Array
I don't know about the tree hugger part but I switched to all copper saboted bullets for my muzzle loader and for my 12 gauge slug gun. The all copper bullet performs and expands flawlessly versus whitetail deer; I never thought about the environmental impact.
"To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT
Never argue with an idiot - they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.
Array
I'm unclear on your question and believe that this could potentially be an interesting discussion.Originally Posted by GunnyBunny
This article seemed straightforward, what in particular do you have an issue with or dispute?
Array
You guys would poop yourselves if you knew what M855 was being replaced with.
-B
RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.
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Array
I think lead bullets offer great terminal performance. Copper bullets are very expensive. I don't think we should dump toxic waste in rivers - that just isn't reasonable - but bullets? Not necessary. I think there a gray area regarding what is reasonable and what isn't regarding being good stewards of the earth - but I don't think this is in the gray area.
Austin
Worrying about lead bullets is like worrying about an alcohol cotton swab for a lethal injection. OMO
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
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Array
What I have noticed using copper bullets is that they do not fragment which is a plus for effectiveness.
"To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT
Never argue with an idiot - they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.
Array
Addressing several points:
At price point, copper or bronze slugs cannot perform equally with lead JHPs. Period.
As noted copper is 3 or more times the price of lead... triple the price of the last quantity of range ammo you used. Seeing the point yet?
It isn't about hunting, its about ammunition. Making ammunition more expensive, that is. Hunting was the sport of the elite for centuries- they would like to see that again.
The only places lead is a legitimate health hazard are "open" public ranges, where large quantities of lead accumulate and may contaminate the ground water, or indoor ranges with non-OSHA/EPA compliant airhandling systems.
Let's get real folks, societies function on logically made decisions, not on "feeling". The "hazards" of lead poisoning via ammunition exposure are based on feeling, and the "legitimate threat" posed to the health of the rangemasters in the police departments of Chitcago and DC- a whopping .0001% of the population. If we want to "feel good" we can join the other 250 million+ dead Communist subjects.
I think this issue of "green" ammo and getting rid of the lead is one where some real good research and innovation by materials scientists could make a radical difference for the better. There have got to be alloys and polymers and polymer-alloy mixes which could get the job done at a price advantage.
What is missing I think is investment in the R&D.
Just like new dental filling material has been developed with better cosmetic qualities and durability than the old mercury based fillings which caused "metal mouths," it is undoubtedly possible to replace lead--particularly for SD handgun rounds.
This is research Uncle should contract out at the schools with major materials science departments because new materials might even improve ballistics and stopping power. The implications are vast for health, environment, and military possibilities.
Array
On the issue of bullet weight, I have searched and haven't found any all copper 230 grain .45 bullets. I don't believe that a coper bullet could be made to have that mass with the same dimensions as its lead containing counterpart. Lead is also more than 3 times the density of copper. I would imagine this would cause some problems when making bullets with a larger mass.
When in doubt empty the magazine.
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy." - George Washington
Array
I'm with Rob72. Just wait until you see what green ammo will cost.....
Array
""We had to stop using lead shot when hunting waterfowl for 2 decades now.
I don't see a problem with lead comtamination from rifle bullets and most hunting though.""
Very little evidence of any need for the steel shot IMHO. Much less for rifle/handgun bullets.
Array
Kinda like telling GM they need to put 8 billion into R&D right now, bro.
This isn't '79 or even '02 where some recovery might be possible. Frankly, unless Obama and the Dem congress fear the public enough to back off, we will have regulations and laws that will cripple us for the next 40 years. Yes, I am only talking about firearms. Every other field of address for them looks much worse...
They want the culture of arms in this country dead. They are succeeding. We have unprecedented supply shortages right now, and we are "intellectually discussing" increasing the cost of the commodity that guarantees the Bill of Rights, far more literally than figuratively, at this moment?!?!
Array
I think the military probably contributes more to that than we do... By, oh, 97% lol
Array
personally, I think the whole lead shot/perigren falcon (or name your bird) thing is totally bogus science. I have been ingesting fragments of lead pellets from birds, rabbits and squirrels, as have most of my ancestors and friends, for just a few years. To my knowledge, none have suffered lead induced brain damage or other illness. The human experience may not be a good analogy in physiological comparison to a bird, but still the science is not complete on lead contamination as it relates to birds. Very similar to the recent "studies" reported in North Dakota about folks eating wild game killed with lead bullets. No matter how they tried, and tried to skew the data, the best that (one researcher) they could come up with was a possible slight increase of lead in a few individuals of the test group above those that do not eat wild game.
Besides the whole enviro-mania thing, if I have need to use my handgun, shotgun or rifle in a defensive situation, lead contamination should be way down on the list of concerns for the parties on either end of the firearm.
surv
Array
eh...all this green vs lead crap is ridiculous... Lead came from the ground. I'm just doing my part in putting it back.
-The Mist (2007)"My God David, We're a Civilized society."
"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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