Transporting pistols in vehicle for a "lawful purpose"....almost arrested in Mi

Transporting pistols in vehicle for a "lawful purpose"....almost arrested in Mi

This is a discussion on Transporting pistols in vehicle for a "lawful purpose"....almost arrested in Mi within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Below is my original post in another forum and the update to that post. Opinions wanted please. This occured in Michigan. Here is my original ...

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  1. #1
    New Member Array Ken KD's Avatar
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    Transporting pistols in vehicle for a "lawful purpose"....almost arrested in Mi

    Below is my original post in another forum and the update to that post.

    Opinions wanted please.

    This occured in Michigan.

    Here is my original post:

    I had an interesting afternoon yesterday...complete with bomb-sniffing dogs and deputies.

    I was driving down a major highway and was pulled over for speeding.
    Deputy came to the passenger window of my Suburban and began asking the usual questions, which I answered as asked.
    He spotted 2 long-gun cases in the far rear area of my suv, and asked why I didn't tell him I had firearms in the car.
    I stated that I was answering his questions and had not had the chance to inform him.
    I do not currently have a CPL, and I was transporting 1 rifle, 1 shotgun, and 2 handguns, all cased and unloaded.
    I own a store and am an FFL holder.

    He searched me and put me in the back of his car.
    He called another deputy, a K9 unit, and conferred with him, then seaerched my entire vehicle.
    He then came into his car with my 2 handguns and ran the numbers....they came back clean.

    He told me I was in violation of the CPL laws, and I could be arrested and convicted of a felony punishable by 5 years in prison for illegally transporting the handguns.

    He ended up giving me a ticket for impeding traffic, told me of my ignorance of the law, and suggested I return the guns to my store or my home immediately.

    Was I wrong.....???
    I will provide more details if needed.


    I filed a foia request with the department and just reviewed the video.

    After the usual questions of drivers license, registration, where are you going, etc. he spotted the long gun cases and a small pistol case in the FAR rear of my Suburban.
    He asked why I did not disclose the firearms and I responded that i did not have a CPL, and did not beleive I was required to disclose legally transported firearms.
    He asked me to place my hands on the steering wheel.
    He asked what firearms I had in the car.
    I told him I had a rifle, a shotgun, a bow, 2 pistols in the FAR back of my Suburban, and a small Leatherman in my pocket.

    He then asked if I had ammunition in the vehicle.
    I responded.....yes, in the orange bucket seperate from the firearms, the firearms are all cased and unloaded.
    I told him I had an FFL.

    He walked to the drivers side and ordered me out of the vehicle.
    He had me spread 'em on the side of my vehicle and conducted a Terry search of my person.
    He asked me to remove my Leatherman from my pocket and place it on my dash.
    He then asked if i had ever been in the back of a police car and I responded that I hadn't.
    He then walked me to the cruiser and placed me in the back seat.
    At that point, I was NOT free to go....I was detained and in effect, under arrest(?)
    He TOLD me, not asked me, that he was going to make sure the firearms were unoaded.
    He then searched my entire vehicle, front to back, and took the 2 pistols out of the vehicle.
    A minivan pulled up behind us and the officer had a conversation with the passerby about my pistols.
    He was waving them around as he walked to the minivan saying "look what I found, he's just carrying these around with him in the vehicle" (paraphrased)

    He then came back to the cruiser and asked me if I had ever been arrested, if the guns belonged to me, and told me I was in violation of the CCW laws, which is a felony punishable by 5 yars in prison.

    He then called for another deputy to come to the scene.
    When the deputy arrived, with a K9, the first deputy got out of his car to confer with him, and shut off his microphone.
    He conferred with the other deputy, both were outside of the vehicle and out of camera range.
    After approximately 5 minutes, he got back in the car and continued to chastise me and tell me I was in violation, and that I could only transport the pistols directly to and from the range or if I were moving from one residence to the other.
    He wrote me the ticket as stated in the original post above, and sent me on my way.
    I was detained, and not free to leave for approx. 34 minutes.


    4A violation......???
    Legal search and seizure(of myself, as I was detained)???

    What do you think?


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    IANAL and do not live in Michagan. But at a quick glance you must be licensed to transport firearms in Michigan. Looks like the Head LEO for the city/township etc... must expeditiously issue said license if you are eligible... I shortened the section but I pulled this out of a PDF from http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...s/firearms.pdf


    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale
    of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation
    during business hours.
    Sec. 2. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.
    (2) A person who brings a pistol into this state who is on leave from active duty with the armed forces of the United States or who has been discharged from active duty with the armed forces of the United States shall obtain a license for the pistol within 30 days after his or her arrival in this state.
    (3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:
    (a) The person is not subject to an order or disposition for which he or she has received notice and an opportunity for a hearing, and which was entered into the law enforcement information network pursuant to any of the following:
    (i) Section 464a(1) of the mental health code, 1974 PA 258, MCL 330.1464a.
    (ii) Section 5107 of the estates and protected individuals code, 1998 PA 386, MCL 700.5107, or section 444a of former 1978 PA 642.
    (iii) Section 2950(10) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950.
    (iv) Section 2950a(7) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950a.
    (v) Section 14 of 1846 RS 84, MCL 552.14.
    (vi) Section 6b(5) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b, if the order has a condition imposed under section 6b(3) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b.
    (vii) Section 16b(1) of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.16b.
    (b) The person is 18 years of age or older or, if the seller is licensed under 18 USC 923, is 21 years of age or older.
    rolyat63
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  3. #3
    New Member Array Ken KD's Avatar
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    That is the code from 1969 I believe....here is the updated MCL.


    Section 750.231a

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931


    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.
    Sec. 231a.

    (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:


    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.

    (b) To the regular and ordinary transportation of pistols as merchandise by an authorized agent of a person licensed to manufacture firearms.

    (c) To a person carrying an antique firearm as defined in subsection (2), completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle.

    (d) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of the vehicle.

    (e) To a person while transporting a pistol for a lawful purpose that is licensed by the owner or occupant of the motor vehicle in compliance with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, and the pistol is unloaded in a closed case designed for the storage of firearms in a vehicle that does not have a trunk and is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.

    (2) As used in this section:

    (a) "Antique firearm" means either of the following:

    (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.

    (ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

    (b) "Lawful purpose" includes the following:

    (i) While en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

    (ii) While transporting a pistol en route to or from his or her home or place of business and place of repair.

    (iii) While moving goods from 1 place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

    (iv) While transporting a licensed pistol en route to or from a law enforcement agency or for the purpose of having a law enforcement official take possession of the weapon.

    (v) While en route to or from his or her abode or place of business and a gun show or places of purchase or sale.

    (vi) While en route to or from his or her abode to a public shooting facility or public land where discharge of firearms is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.

    (vii) While en route to or from his or her abode to a private property location where the pistol is to be used as is permitted by law, rule, regulation, or local ordinance.



    History: Add. 1964, Act 215, Eff. Aug. 28, 1964 ;-- Am. 1973, Act 191, Eff. Mar. 29, 1974 ;-- Am. 1974, Act 55, Imd. Eff. Apr. 1, 1974 ;-- Am. 1978, Act 280, Imd. Eff. July 6, 1978 ;-- Am. 2002, Act 82, Imd. Eff. Mar. 26, 2002 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 196, Eff. Jan. 7, 2009
    Last edited by Ken KD; April 30th, 2009 at 11:06 PM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    Wow, how radically different. The cover of the PDF on the link I posted had March 2009 on it. Can't even trust the state. Maybe that's what the LEO had been studying up on.

    I might take that and the data gathered under foia and talk to the head LEO in his LEA, confirm your understanding . Then consider if you want to inform him how his officer acted so he/she can provide the requisite training.
    rolyat63
    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor

    A gun in the hand is a million times more valuable than a cop on the phone!

    FL Concealed Weapon or Firearm Program

  5. #5
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    If you do NOT have your CCW permit to and from the range ,gun shop residence only is the law according to the MSP website as well. The way the officer conducted the stop was questionable, especially with the minivan.
    In your post you do not mention your destination , however it sounds as if you were going or coming from a range , which is legal. I suggest politely contacting the dept and explaining what happened. Ask for a follow up call once the incident has been reviewed or just contact a lawyer if you feel the need.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  6. #6
    New Member Array Ken KD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    If you do NOT have your CCW permit to and from the range ,gun shop residence only is the law according to the MSP website as well. The way the officer conducted the stop was questionable, especially with the minivan.
    In your post you do not mention your destination , however it sounds as if you were going or coming from a range , which is legal. I suggest politely contacting the dept and explaining what happened. Ask for a follow up call once the incident has been reviewed or just contact a lawyer if you feel the need.

    Incorrect....notice the word "including"....that does not mean excluding any other lawful purpose, such as transporting the firearm to a place where open-carry is permitted.

    Also look at vii in the statue I posted above.

  7. #7
    Lead Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken KD View Post
    Incorrect....notice the word "including"....that does not mean excluding any other lawful purpose, such as transporting the firearm to a place where open-carry is permitted.

    Also look at vii in the statue I posted above.

    You could be right (I'm not a lawyer), however I am not going to argue the letter of the law. If the officer read this statue , he could well understand it the same way I did. I would suggest getting a lawyers opinion on your interpretation of the law however.
    The stop itself was alright, including the detaining and search of the vehicle gun cases in open view). The way it was conducted could have been way better though.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

  8. #8
    Member Array chipperi's Avatar
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    I don't Know about MI but we have had officers here fired for turning off their audio and or video. File an IA complaint on the officer if for nothing more than conduct unbecoming a public servant.

  9. #9
    Member Array oldogy's Avatar
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    I own a store and am an FFL holder.

    If you had proof of your FFL on your person, made a presentable appearance, and did not mouth off, the cop had to be a complete jackass and this old man will never be convinced otherwise. Especially when you consider how convoluted the laws are that govern this activity.
    oldogy
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    "If gun laws in fact worked, the sponsors of this type of legislation should have no difficulty drawing upon long lists of examples of crime rates reduced by such legislation. That they cannot do so after a century and a half of trying -- " Sen Orrin G. Hatch

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array LeCalsey's Avatar
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    (INAL) I don't think you did anything wrong. The laws in MI are VERY confusing and probably intentionally done that way
    2A is not negotiable

  11. #11
    Member Array OhShoot's Avatar
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    Does Federal Firearm Law not apply and override here?

    You can transport your firearms from one place of legal possession to another place of legal possession (ANYWHERE in the contiguous US at least)?

    I'm not looking up the exact verbiage, but that's the gist of it.

    - OS

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array TucAzRider's Avatar
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    I lived in Michigan and had my CWP,... But I never had a LE ever give me a hard time about weapons,. I would (as was mentioned above) call the office where the officer was out of and take with someone above him.. Explain what happened and ask if that was normal,.. Be nice for sure.. Get your CWP so you don't have to worry about this again..

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array Ragin Cajun's Avatar
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    Sounds like the cop didn't know what the law is and thought he had his big fish of the day. From the way he treated you and the crap he told you, I would bet the other cop showed up and told him he really didn't have anything and that is why he let you go, because he didn't have any other choice. If he would have had something, after being that much of a ***** he would have charged you if he could have. I would file a complaint for sure.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragin Cajun View Post
    Sounds like the cop didn't know what the law is and thought he had his big fish of the day. From the way he treated you and the crap he told you, I would bet the other cop showed up and told him he really didn't have anything and that is why he let you go, because he didn't have any other choice. If he would have had something, after being that much of a ***** he would have charged you if he could have. I would file a complaint for sure.
    I think you are dead on here. What kind of LEO would let you off on a warning if, as the LEO asserted, with a dead to rights text book weapons felony in this hyper litigious and political atmosphere. I may be off base. If I am if you are a LEO let me know.


    The comment made by one poster about the turning off of the mike piqued my interest. What ARE the rules on that. It certainly seems counterintuitive.
    rolyat63
    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor

    A gun in the hand is a million times more valuable than a cop on the phone!

    FL Concealed Weapon or Firearm Program

  15. #15
    New Member Array Ken KD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rolyat63 View Post

    The comment made by one poster about the turning off of the mike piqued my interest. What ARE the rules on that. It certainly seems counterintuitive.

    Yes....that piqued my interest as well.

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