FFL License question... hope this is the right place

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Thread: FFL License question... hope this is the right place

  1. #1
    Member Array tbmccord's Avatar
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    FFL License question... hope this is the right place

    My question should apply to all states but Texas is where I reside. A friend and I were shooting at the local indoor range... won't mention the name. I brought a pistol that I had on Gunbroker and he shot it. He liked it enough to buy it. As we were walking out the door of this range/gun store, an employee approached us and warned us to never discuss a transaction on the property of a FFL holder. He went as far to state that we were in violation of federal law to do that.

    Number one, we discussed him buying the gun.

    Number two, no money changed hands.

    Number three, I still had the gun in my bag as we were leaving the building getting into our cars. We were headed to my hous to finalize the sake and end the Gunbroker auction (which had no bids).

    Was this guy out of line?
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    I'm no authority on interpreting FFL laws, but his comment sounds a bit over-the-top to me. JMHO
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

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    He's blowing smoke. I'm not an FFL but I represented one for a number of years. There's no law concerning the protection of an FFL's sole right to transactions on a given premisis. There are laws defining when and how an FFL can transfer/sell firearms but these do not apply to non-FFL citizens selling firearms on the private market. It could be considered rude to conduct business under his roof but there was no law violated. He lied.

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    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    +1 on the post from Czampion; I used to hold an FFL until Clinton signed the AWB and the Brady bill, and I can terll you that there is no law whatsoever governing a private transaction between 2 individuals. You are free to sell that weapon when and where you choose and to whom.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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    Sounds like the issue here is somewhat like how a restaurant owner would react if you attempted to bring your lunch box in, sit down, and at most order a cola.

    The owner --regardless of how he may have put it-- simply objected to you engaging in what appeared to be a deal to sell a firearm, while in his store.

    I don't blame him, but he didn't handle it well.

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    Member Array tbmccord's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input one and all.

    It was my opinion that we just paid him over $40 for two spots in his range so it wasn't like we brought our lunch to his restaurant. We did not go there with the intent of conducting a transaction. While he was practicing with his firearms, I allowed him to try one of mine. He liked it. I mentioned it was for sale. As we were leaving, while still in the store area that is between the range and the front door, he said "I would like to buy that gun." I told him that if there was no bids when we got to a computer, I would end the auction and it would be his ... and we continued walking outside.

    The man made money off of what we came there to do. He made an a$$ of himself by confronting us outside of his employers establishment. I had spent $20+ per week in this range there for the past three years. I have bought several guns from them. But when he pulled this little temper tantrum, I have not set foot on his property again. .. and will not in the future.
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    Member Array LinkT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbmccord View Post
    Thanks for the input one and all.

    It was my opinion that we just paid him over $40 for two spots in his range so it wasn't like we brought our lunch to his restaurant. We did not go there with the intent of conducting a transaction. While he was practicing with his firearms, I allowed him to try one of mine. He liked it. I mentioned it was for sale. As we were leaving, while still in the store area that is between the range and the front door, he said "I would like to buy that gun." I told him that if there was no bids when we got to a computer, I would end the auction and it would be his ... and we continued walking outside.

    The man made money off of what we came there to do. He made an a$$ of himself by confronting us outside of his employers establishment. I had spent $20+ per week in this range there for the past three years. I have bought several guns from them. But when he pulled this little temper tantrum, I have not set foot on his property again. .. and will not in the future.
    Out of curiosity, was this individual who confronted you the owner or an employee?

    If the owner, then your response is appropriate, but if an employee, you might wish to take the issue up with his employer first, before writing the place off entirely. One badly-behaved worker shouldn't be enough to take you away from a place you've been using for three years.

    Of course, if the employer stands behind his worker, the whole point is moot.
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    Never heard of such thing......nicely ask him where it is in black and white....Believe it when you see it.
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    If you were in their shop actively making and dealing in private sales to others on a regular basis, I don't think the range would be out of line to tell you to stop doing transactions on their premises.

    However it sounds like you were only doing a casual sale discussion with a friend. Surely the owners of this range are 2A supporters and should expect a certain amount of gun-related discussion among customers about, price of guns, repairing guns, modifying guns, and talk of buying guns. So I still think the guy was over-the-top in his comment, if he owned a restaurant I wouldn't eat there either.

    If this guy is the owner, find another range; if this guy is an employee I'd try speaking to the owner about this.

    As I read this thread the guy made two mistakes in dealing with a paying/regular customer:
    1. His comment was pretty picky it seems to me.
    2. Citing a federal law violation, which he apparently can't back up.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbmccord View Post
    My question should apply to all states but Texas is where I reside. A friend and I were shooting at the local indoor range... won't mention the name. I brought a pistol that I had on Gunbroker and he shot it. He liked it enough to buy it. As we were walking out the door of this range/gun store, an employee approached us and warned us to never discuss a transaction on the property of a FFL holder. He went as far to state that we were in violation of federal law to do that.

    Number one, we discussed him buying the gun.

    Number two, no money changed hands.

    Number three, I still had the gun in my bag as we were leaving the building getting into our cars. We were headed to my hous to finalize the sake and end the Gunbroker auction (which had no bids).

    Was this guy out of line?
    There are literally thousands of hobby FFL's in every state. Some FFL's who actually own stores are very protective of what they feel is their territory. They simply do not want any competition.

    Others are either ignorant or uninformed about what is regulated by ATF.

    All gun store owners must employ BATF trained employees. Some just like to act like cops with no authority.

    Law varies state by state but most private shooting ranges are also setup as gun clubs. They offer memberships, you shoot as often as you want to.

    The indoor ranges I shoot at in Missouri have differences of opinion about how a weapon can be carried and stored. This is just the range policy and their right to do so.

    I am permitted to conceal in 37 states.

    At one range I frequent, they asked that I continue to bring my weapons in locked cases.

    They feel that where two people get together while waiting for a lane or at the gun counter, one might pull out his gun and say, "have a look at this". For safety reasons they ask you not to do this even though I can legally and do enter the store concealed.
    They know me and never ask. Some of the guys I know behind the counter are carrying 4 or more weapons a flashlight and a knife.

    Another range I frequently shoot at says This is a private gun club. It is private property. As soon as you enter our parking lot you have full freedom to carry openly outside the building or inside providing you carry a CCW permit.

    If a person walks into a gun shop with a loaded gun and brandishes it, the gun store employee may shoot you. He will have to answer to police but will almost always be vindicated from any crime. This is his turf and has the right to defend it in almost all legal situations.
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    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    Gentlemen, I am not saying what the truth really is, but long ago, an FFL dealer mentioned something to the effect that if a transfer occurs on the premises of an FFL, it must be reflected on his books. This was not said in the context of me trying to do a deal with another individual, and I do not recall what prompted the conversation.

    If an FFL does not chime in here before then, I know one I can ask on Monday.

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    I checked the BATF website, my Federal Firearms Regulation Guide, and all of my FFL newsletters and find no indication of any law or regulation concerning what individual non-licensed persons discuss while on and FFL's property.

    As to the idea that if a transfer occurs on the premises of an FFL it must be reflected on his books that is probably an excellent idea and position to take, but I don't find it stated either.

    One other comment. There is no requirement that a gun store owner employ BATF trained employees. From the law and instructions I was given the owner is expected to train his employees, but I find not training requirement. In fact to be a employee the person must fill out and sign a "FFL Officer/Employee Acknowledgment of Responsibilities unde the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)" form that states the employee has read and understands "Responsibilities of a Federal Firearms Licenseee (FFL) under the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)". There is no other requirement that I can find.
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    Member Array tbmccord's Avatar
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    Again, thanks for all the replies.

    To those that asked, this was an employee butnot just a salesman or counterman, he is the manager in charge when the owner is not there. To me, he represents the owner.

    I will not post it publicly, but if anyone in the Austin Texas area wants to know the name of this range, just e-mail me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbmccord View Post
    My question should apply to all states but Texas is where I reside. A friend and I were shooting at the local indoor range... won't mention the name. I brought a pistol that I had on Gunbroker and he shot it. He liked it enough to buy it. As we were walking out the door of this range/gun store, an employee approached us and warned us to never discuss a transaction on the property of a FFL holder. He went as far to state that we were in violation of federal law to do that.

    Number one, we discussed him buying the gun.

    Number two, no money changed hands.

    Number three, I still had the gun in my bag as we were leaving the building getting into our cars. We were headed to my hous to finalize the sake and end the Gunbroker auction (which had no bids).

    Was this guy out of line?

    Im not FFL, but I dont see anything wrong with just talking about it. No transactions were made, seems silly.

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