High Capacity Mags & Pistols

This is a discussion on High Capacity Mags & Pistols within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Where do we Morally draw the line with the constant more is better? Don't get me wrong If I really liked how the High Capacity ...

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Thread: High Capacity Mags & Pistols

  1. #1
    Member Array ECHOONE's Avatar
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    High Capacity Mags & Pistols

    Where do we Morally draw the line with the constant more is better? Don't get me wrong If I really liked how the High Capacity pistols felt and felt I needed one I'd run right out and get one ( Which is starting to be the case as I'll be forced too,to avoid being under powered).
    But really don't you think that they should have been delagated for military and LE Purposes and not for civilians? Now that there available to all you have two choices, either carry alot more mags or follow suit and buy a H C Pistol just so that you have enough ammo. I know shot Placement is what really counts, but we have to feel uneasy wondering if the BG threating us has a 30rd mag in his Glock, when were standing there with an 7-8 rd clip! Where does it end? Pretty soon Concealed carry will involve having to walk out with a back pack filled with ammo mags. I realize it's more conveniant not to have to reload as much,and it's always nice to have more then the other guy,but were does it stop? There's some civilians walking around with more rounds for there sidearm then alot of servicemen have in a war zone.Pretty soon we won't want to walk out without kevlar. It worries me that in our passion for more, were giving certain parties more reason to come after our 2nd amendment rights and you know they will !

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    Um. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that we don't need "high" capacity mags, and so they should be restricted/outlawed. If that is indeed your belief, then I must completely, utterly, and vehemently disagree. That is the worst sort of "I got mine, to hell with the rest of you" mentality that the antis use to divide us, until everyone ends up losing.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    But really don't you think that they should have been delagated for military and LE Purposes and not for civilians?
    NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    Now that there available to all you have two choices, either carry alot more mags or follow suit and buy a H C Pistol just so that you have enough ammo. I know shot Placement is what really counts, but we have to feel uneasy wondering if the BG threating us has a 30rd mag in his Glock, when were standing there with an 7-8 rd clip!
    Why should the number of rounds in the BG's gun affect what you carry? One bullet in the wrong place is enough to ruin your day. If you don't feel comfortable going up against a BG carrying 30 rounds with your carry gun, you shouldn't feel comfortable confronting a BG who is carrying a 6 shot revolver.

    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    It worries me that in our passion for more, were giving certain parties more reason to come after our 2nd amendment rights and you know they will !
    It's gun owners like you, those who are willing to throw some guns under the bus in order to hold on to your own firearms, that are the threat here.

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    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    New Member Array eraser24's Avatar
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    yes we should be able to have high capacity magazines..if you are an honest law abiding citizen you should be able to own those absolutely ..when we begin to give an inch they will take miles and miles from us.

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    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Somewhere a bridge is missing its troll...

    Speaking as an LEO, we don't "need" high capacity magazines either. The only people that actually need high capacity magazines are those going into combat. As a general rule, we LEOs don't go into combat. When we are involved in shootings they often very closely mirror the kinds of shootings that non-LEO citizens get involved in. Yes, sometimes we are called upon to go into situations that non-LEOs are not. In those cases, guess what we bring? Long guns.

    My department issued me three weapons, a Beretta 96FS .40S&W (11+1), a Ruger Mini-14 .223 (20+1), and a Benelli Nova 12 gauge (5+1). In the event that I am called to a location where I think I might need to shoot, I bring the rifle. Handguns for LEOs, just like everyone else, are for those times that one needs a gun and had no specific forewarning that one might need a gun.

    I work part time for another PD where I provide my own duty weapon. Its a S&W M&P45 that holds 10+1. I've always been a fan of big bullets over more smaller bullets. Of my off-duty weapons, the highest capacity of them holds 8+1, the others hold 6+1, 5, and 5 respectively. I own quite a number of other handguns. Of all of them, only two have standard capacity magazines that hold more than ten rounds.

    Handguns are not offensive weapons, and as such, they do not "need" to be high capacity.

    The job of the LEO is different than the job of the solider anyway. We can't generally lay down suppressive fire. Unlike combat, every bullet we fire is a potential civil suit of criminal charge flying down range. For us long guns are supposed to be for precision shooting (that is much more difficult with a handgun) and rapid target incapacitation (which is generally not as likely with handgun cartridges). My department issued me a large capacity (relatively) semi-automatic rifle for patrol. I really like the Mini, but for the actual job of a patrol rifle I would feel just as comfortable with a lever action in a rifle caliber (.30-30, .35 Remington, .45-70) or something like a M1 Garand.

    All that said, the lack of "need" of something isn't a good reason to legislate against it. No one needs a car capable of exceeding the speed limit, ice cream, t-bone steak, beer, etc. Wanting something is a perfectly valid reason for having something in a free society. That fact that something could be used to commit a crime isn't enough justification to ban it.

    In the event of some sort of gun or magazine ban, I think it should apply to everyone except the military when operating outside the boarders of the US. We are, after all, supposed to be leading by example. If our president, for instance, thinks that high capacity magazines and machineguns are bad, he shouldn't allow anyone protecting him to have them either.
    -Landric

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    Member Array CRags99's Avatar
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    If you were to ban High Capacity Magazines, do you really think that criminals would stop using them too?
    Glock 27

    "Criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot."

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    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Iíll have to agree with Landric

    The most my carry gun has ever held was the G19 with 15 rounds. Today I carry a Glock 26 that has 10 +1, and I do not carry an extra magazine. And sometime I carry the little Kel-Tec P3AT and it only carryís 6 +1.

    First, keep in mind real world is not like you see at the movies. If you look at national statistics, a gun fight is over with ether you or the BG getting shot and it all will be over within 3-5 seconds.

    Youíll see in the news, gang members have a tendency of spraying and hoping they hit something when they get in a gun fight. Thatís why they like high capacity 9mm and 40 caliber pistols. They figure that once they put a bullet in you they can then walk up and finish you off.

    You cannot do the same, because as a civilian or an LEO, youíre accountable with each and every bullet that leaves your gun. Sure, you may survive the gunfight, but hit an innocent passerby and your life as you know it is over.

    For this reason itís more important to practice hitting your target.

    I learned this drills when I worked for the Feds and we still do them monthly.
    We set up three BG half size targets.

    The drills are to put two bullets in the first BG COM and then one in the other two COM. Starting at three meters and then move out to 10 meters and do it again. The other person calls out which BG to shoot first, as he clicks the stop watch. You have a max of 7 seconds to draw and shoot all three.

    Right now Iím averaging just under 4 seconds.

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    It is my firm belief that we should be able to own have any firearm that LEO's or the military use, do we need them , probably not, but that doesn't mean we don't have the right to own them.

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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    Where do we Morally draw the line with the constant more is better?
    "Morally"? When there is no one left offering unprovoked violence.

    Ask Reginald Denny, if he had had a weapon: a derringer, or a Glock...?

    The thing about massaging a mental schema is that it feels really good until it is applied with interactive human variables. I've never met anyone, on either side of the law, who was involved in a shooting and wanted less ammo, in situ.

    There's some civilians walking around with more rounds for there sidearm then alot of servicemen have in a war zone.
    Innaccurate hyperbole. Someone recently in can certainly clarify, but a modest load-out would be 180-300 rounds for the rifle and +/- 50 rounds for the sidearm.

    If you mean total load-out, no one takes that seriously. If you mean 50+ rounds for the pistol...

    50 rounds is getting to the upper limit of carrying concealed and unobtrusive, though I have carried more in a couple of locations.

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    Thank you OPFOR, I was going to do the same. I don't want to be a jerk, but to the OP, learn the difference between THEN and THAN also.

    And as others said, this type of thinking is how the antis divide and conquer.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    Senior Member Array LeCalsey's Avatar
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    Wow, where to begin. In short NO!

    I am still in awe that some states have HC magazine bans to begin with. Check out crime statistics in MA, CA, and HI. Capacity restrictions have NO impact on crime reduction. Criminals in those states don't care about the bans and use whatever makes them feel empowered to do the illicit activities they are going to do. Mob hitmen in Boston or NYC (for example) don't seem to be limited or restricted by the law of the land, do they? Gangbangers? They couldn't care less except for the fact that they can sleep knowing their next victim will likely be UNARMED or most certainly under armed.

    Those DRAKONIAN laws only help the BG and restrict the rights of the good law abiding citizens.

    If I could comfortably carry and conceal a 40 round mag, I would do it. I don't want to have to carry extra mags to complete the task so for me, a restriction on mag capacity is idiotic.
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    JD
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    Typical load out for Military is about 45 rounds of 9mm (three 15rd mags for the M9) and 6 mags for the M16/M4 (180 rds) with more ammo not loaded in mags.

    Hmmmm, can't say I've carried that much on me since I left Iraq.

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    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
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    I'll take whatever I can legally get but will always want more....but that is just me......
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    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    But really don't you think that they should have been delagated for military and LE Purposes and not for civilians?
    Absolutely not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    Now that there available to all you have two choices, either carry alot more mags or follow suit and buy a H C Pistol just so that you have enough ammo.
    We actually have more than two choices. You could choose to be unarmed, or choose to stay home.

    Whatever you choose is fine with me, but my choice is MY DECISION, and no one else's. I'm perfectly capable of making my own decisions, thank you.

    Limiting high-cap mags and guns would likely have the same success as trying to keep guns from criminals in D.C., Philly, L.A., East St. Louis, etc. In other words, the criminals wouldn't obey the law. So you would have a disparity of force because honest people would obey the law.

    All I'm asking for is an even chance. Those in power, and misinformed citizens, need to keep from limiting my options to respond, limitations which criminals pay no attention to.

    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    I know shot Placement is what really counts, but we have to feel uneasy wondering if the BG threating us has a 30rd mag in his Glock, when were standing there with an 7-8 rd clip! Where does it end?
    Seriously, if you're that uneasy, there are some steps you can take. Get some training, purchase some more equipment, either another gun or more mags, and practice your situational awareness so perhaps you can avoid some gun battles. It sounds like you are giving up and asking someone to make the BG's "play fair". It's not going to happen. This is reality.

    Whether you refuse to train more or arm yourself better is your decision, but don't attempt to make that decision for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    Pretty soon we won't want to walk out without kevlar.
    There are some neighborhoods in St. Louis that are like that now. If you live in such a neighborhood, try to move ASAP.

    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    It worries me that in our passion for more, were giving certain parties more reason to come after our 2nd amendment rights and you know they will !
    Recent history indicates more people are becoming aware of the need and benefits of carrying a weapon for self-protection. Yes, there will always be those who try to take away our rights. The best way to fight that is through legislation and electing those who will support our cause, not voluntarily limiting what we carry because it might look bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Landric View Post
    All that said, the lack of "need" of something isn't a good reason to legislate against it. No one needs a car capable of exceeding the speed limit, ice cream, t-bone steak, beer, etc. Wanting something is a perfectly valid reason for having something in a free society. That fact that something could be used to commit a crime isn't enough justification to ban it.
    Exactly. I've got a coworker who doesn't think people need to carry weapons off-duty. Yet he drives either a motorcycle or an SUV. The next time he brings up that argument, I'm going to tell him that since he doesn't need a motorcycle or an SUV, he shouldn't be able to have them. After all, he could drive a sub-compact car. In fact, I could provide data showing the dangers of riding a motorcycle, and also the dangers to others if one drives an SUV.

    Furthermore, those actions are not protected by anything in the constitution other than the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. No amendment specifically gives one the right to ride a motorcycle or drive an SUV, even though those actions can be shown to increase danger to life (in the case of the SUV, it's an increase to others, not to the occupants of the SUV). Note: I'm not against SUV's, it's just a point of argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    If our president, for instance, thinks that high capacity magazines and machineguns are bad, he shouldn't allow anyone protecting him to have them either.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRags99 View Post
    If you were to ban High Capacity Magazines, do you really think that criminals would stop using them too?
    Short, succinct, and accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Ask Reginald Denny, if he had had a weapon: a derringer, or a Glock...?
    I remember Reginald Denny. I remember seeing his broken body still trying to recover months after the attack. He will never be the same because some soulless humanoids attacked him, and because he was unable to defend himself. Those who attacked him should receive the same treatment, especially the coward who slammed a brick into the back of Mr. Denny's head from close range as Mr. Denny was on his knees being beaten by several other scum.

    If you are seriously posting, here is my serious answer with no ill will intended: face reality, and then make decisions based on what reality is, not what we wish it was.

    But don't try and take away my capability to defend myself or my family.

    Furthermore, non-LEO's IMO need more capabilities than the police in some instances because:
    1. They often don't have an armed and trained partner with them
    2. They don't have backup a radio call away
    3. They may not have a shotgun in between the front seats, nor a rifle in the trunk
    4. Dispatch doesn't know their approximate location BEFORE a call for help is placed

    For many non-LEO's, they either resolve the threat in a few moments, or they lose. They can lose a child's life or innocence, their mate's life or health, or their own life or health.

    There is too much at risk to download what I carry just because "we shouldn't need that much", or because "where does it all stop?"

    Carry what you want, or don't carry at all. But I'll make up my own mind on what I carry. Anyone who tries to make that decision for me is my enemy.

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