"When do you actually own a new gun?"

This is a discussion on "When do you actually own a new gun?" within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Interesting read: Denver Gun Rights Examiner: When do you actually own a new gun? When do you own your new gun? While less than 1% ...

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Thread: "When do you actually own a new gun?"

  1. #1
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    "When do you actually own a new gun?"

    Interesting read:

    Denver Gun Rights Examiner: When do you actually own a new gun?

    When do you own your new gun? While less than 1% of checks sent through the FBI's Instant Background Check system are turned down, one such denial has turned up an interesting question. An Examiner colleague of mine, Brigette Rodriguez, alerted me to a local gun dealer who contends that only after you buy the gun can he submit the request for the background check. His reasoning is that since you have to attest on the form that you are the buyer of the gun (to make straw purchases illegal) you must have consummated the purchase for him to legally run the background check. He had a woman who failed the background check. He explained to her that although she paid for the gun, he could not legally let her have possession. To help out however, he would resell it for her for a 20% commission.

    Our local Troubleshooter radio show host Tom Martino interviewed her on his show and talked to a representative of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation as well as several callers. The discussion was sort of battled to a draw May 5th and 6th. At exactly what point in the sale does the Instant Background Check occur? For most of us, we indicate we want the gun and fill out the form. While the check is being run over the internet, we continue shopping. When the check comes back clean, we bring the other goodies we got up to the counter and pay for the whole lot, while we complain about the lack of ammunition to use with the new gun. Then, we tip our hat and go home. Is this gun store owner the only one doing it right, or is he the only one doing it wrong? If we warrant that we are the purchaser of the gun, are we perjuring ourselves on the Instant Background Check paperwork if we haven't already paid for it? If we have paid for it, are we illegal according to the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 of buying a gun without a background check? Among the counter people I have talked to, the consensus is that you don't actually pay for the gun if you don't come back approved on the background check. What do you think?
    This is making me think twice about giving the money before the check is complete. (My 'instant check' is NEVER INSTANT! It is always delayed....)
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

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  3. #2
    Member Array Speve's Avatar
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    never dealt with anyone who did business like this, and I would never do so in the future either.

    as far as I am concerned, I own the gun when I walk out the door with it, until that happens, its theirs, its merely on layaway for me
    NRA Member

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    Interesting read:

    Denver Gun Rights Examiner: When do you actually own a new gun?



    This is making me think twice about giving the money before the check is complete. (My 'instant check' is NEVER INSTANT! It is always delayed....)
    Yet another reason why I need not bother with buying at a store anymore. My incoming AR is all parts and pieces from private sale. No more red tape/lawyer talk BS.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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    Member Array oldogy's Avatar
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    I have never paid before the background check. BTW, it gets expensive.
    oldogy
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    "If gun laws in fact worked, the sponsors of this type of legislation should have no difficulty drawing upon long lists of examples of crime rates reduced by such legislation. That they cannot do so after a century and a half of trying -- " Sen Orrin G. Hatch

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    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    Sounds like a straight up con job to me. They're not allowed to sell you a gun until you pass it. That's the whole point. If they sell a gun to someone who failed a background check they're in big trouble.

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    As far as I'm concerned the dealer is full of dog doo doo. I've never seen a background check done after the gun is paid for. It is always afterwords. If he sells a gun to a convicted felon, it doesn't matter if the felon took possession or not, the dealer broke the law and can lose his FFL.
    In this case the person failed the background check (doesn't say why) and the dealer refuses to give the customer their bought and paid for property and then tries to profit from it by selling it on consignment.

    The buyer needs to sue the store owner, as well as file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.

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    Senior Member Array jca1's Avatar
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    The whole "are you the actual buyer" part is to make sure the pistol you want to buy is for you and not for someone else.

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    With the usual IANAL disclaimer, I think there is a legal concept of a "continuing transaction" which might cover this situation. The process of picking out the gun, filling out the paperwork, getting the background check done, and paying for the gun are all part of one continuing transaction. At any point that it falls through, there is no transaction.

    I'll now look forward to hearing from real lawyers to see if I am even close.

    Bottom line in my perhaps uninformed opinion, the whole discussion is a red herring that is based on misconceptions and misunderstandings. I wouldn't do bizz with that guy.

  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Where I work we always run the background check first. If the customer does not get approved we don't continue the transaction.

    Once the approval is given to sell the gun we then collect the money for the purchase. If the customer has a Florida concealed weapons license we can do the TRANSFER right then. If not, the customer has a full three day wait period after which we do the transfer.

    The customer does not own the firearm until the transfer is complete.

    The transfer of firearm is logged into the firearms sales/transfer log book.
    “I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.”
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    I've never paid for a background check and when required, it was done before I paid for the gun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supertac45 View Post
    I've never paid for a background check and when required, it was done before I paid for the gun.
    +1 right

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    I would politely go back to that same dealer and request a full refund.
    If not, I would tell the dealer that I would inform BATFE that he sells guns to people who can't pass a background checks...he doesn't care, he sells to anyone and there is proof...produce receipt, that is if there is still a receipt to show.
    I don't think that the gun shop owner wants BATFE agents looking through his records.

    Just a suggestion...
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    The Dealers logic is wrong. It has always been completed prior to payment because I am, in any and every sense of the word, the "Buyer". Payment is not a condition precedent to the NICS. The NICS is a condition precedent to the purchase and sale.

    I call him a crook, liar and thief to his face. The 20% is baloney, and Retsup99 has the formula. Following his (the Dealers) logic, he has violated BATFE rules. Bad boy. Loose your license.

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    if this happened to me my very next action would be to dial my local PD. "Hello...police? Help I'm being robbed."
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Well since I don't have to have a NICS check done on me anymore, that is one perk with at Texas CHL, I don't have to worry about it.

    However before I had my CHL I only paid for one gun before the NICS check was done, so I would not be caught in the situation usually.

    That being said, there are certain times that this would come into play. For instance, when I bought my Dan Wesson 1911 straight from the company. It was paid for before it was shipped to a local FFL. Had I not passed the NICS check the FFL would not have been able to let me leave with the gun. He might have offered to purchase the gun from me at a discount. This is just something to consider when someone would buy from Gun Broker or some other way that would require the purchase be made prior to shipment.

    This story doesn't read that it took place this way, but it is quite possible.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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