Does anyone target practice w/o sighting...

This is a discussion on Does anyone target practice w/o sighting... within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; ...say having their gun near their hip when they fire and are able to hit targets from a good distance away. Just curious. How do ...

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Thread: Does anyone target practice w/o sighting...

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    Member Array dlclarkii's Avatar
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    Does anyone target practice w/o sighting...

    ...say having their gun near their hip when they fire and are able to hit targets from a good distance away. Just curious. How do you practice in being able to do so?

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    I will normally run a magazine shooting from the hip, usually 3-5 yards distance. Although I don't want a BG within that range, I want to be able to hit the target if nedded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlclarkii View Post
    ...say having their gun near their hip when they fire and are able to hit targets from a good distance away. Just curious. How do you practice in being able to do so?
    I hope so, because if you have that 'once in a lifetime' encounter in a WalMart parking lot, I'll bet that you never have a chance to use your sights...I'm just sayin'...

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    With the right handgun you might be susprised how accurate point shooting can be. It takes alot of practice but its fun practice.

    Michael

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    Member Array wagglebee's Avatar
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    Yep. I think this is far more important than being accurate with the sites. In a self-defense situation you will not have time to use the sights and you will not have a still target. Also, you are likely to be at a very short range.

    Being able to shoot a three inch group at 25 yards is great, but it is not nearly as practical for self-defense scenarios and people think. In most, if you shoot and kill someone at that distance they better have been shooting at you first because otherwise you will have a really tough time explaining your actions.

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    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagglebee View Post
    Yep. I think this is far more important than being accurate with the sites. In a self-defense situation you will not have time to use the sights and you will not have a still target. Also, you are likely to be at a very short range.

    Being able to shoot a three inch group at 25 yards is great, but it is not nearly as practical for self-defense scenarios and people think. In most, if you shoot and kill someone at that distance they better have been shooting at you first because otherwise you will have a really tough time explaining your actions.
    +1. That's why I don't fret much over extremely accurate handguns. I like them, and the gun I carry is accurate, but for practical purposes, it's really not necessary. Now, with rifles, different story, depending on the intended use of course.

    I have to admit though, that I don't practice as much as I should for close distance no sight shooting. It just seems, I don't know, not challeging or something. I mean, practicing at 5 to 7 yards to me is hardly worth wasting ammo. I know I should probably adjust my thinking, but it's hard to do.
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    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    Every time I qual, the first twelve shots are fired from my agency's interpretation of "hip" shooting, at two yards. This is NOT slow-fire, and drawing is part of it, but I usually manage to get most of them in the ten-ring of a B-27. (The ten-ring is easy in slow fire, of course.)

    I practice a couple of other types of unsighted shooting, one taken directly from Bill Jordan's method, and is actually a progression from firing as soon as clearing leather, to the use of sights as the weapon is extended more and brought into line of sight. This is more accurate than my PD's interpretation of hip shooting, as my elbow need not be in contact with my torso. This methodology works best with my revolvers, particularly the longer, heavier ones.

    I also practice from what SouthNarc calls the #2 position, with a flagged thumb against the pec. This is higher than the hip, and can be quite accurate up close. There is a slight downward angle of the muzzle, so this is for UP CLOSE. I find this works well with my duty/carry SIGs. This method also has a continuum, from the high and tight #2 to full extension of the arms, and you pick up the sights, as needed, as the arms extend the weapon into line of sight.

    I have also integrated parts of Mas Ayoob's Stressfire system, and notably, my PD just started integrating the Stressfire system into the training.

    I would not be surprised if this thread degenerates into some fierceness over the idea of hip or point shooting, versus sighted fire. I see no reason for anyone to think there is any need for "either-or" here. If a guy has to shoot when the weapon is not in the line of sight, he is point-shooting, and if the sights can be seen, it is sighted fire. Simple. No conflict. There is even middle ground, when the weapon, and perhaps the sights, are in the field of vision, but the front post is not inside the rear notch.
    Last edited by Rexster; June 4th, 2009 at 06:29 PM. Reason: typo

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    Rexter

    I would not be surprised if this thread degenerates into some fierceness over the idea of hip or point shooting, versus sighted fire. I see no reason for anyone to think there is any need for "either-or" here. If a guy has to shoot when the weapon is not in the line of sight, he is point-shooting, and if the sights can be seen, it is sighted fire. Simple. No conflict. There is even middle ground, when the weapon, and perhaps the sights, are in the field of vision, but the front post is not inside the rear notch.

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    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    Do you practice safe s** without a condom??

    Use the sights, especially at any distance farther than arms' length. After all, you are responsible for every bullet you turn loose.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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    Senior Member Array jca1's Avatar
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    I dont hip shoot really, but I do draw and shoot(doubletap) as fast as I can without using the sights from 3 yds.

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    And...that is why you absolutely need to be able to turn those projectiles loose and get them to go where you need and want them to go without using your sights as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    Do you practice safe s** without a condom??

    Use the sights, especially at any distance farther than arms' length. After all, you are responsible for every bullet you turn loose.

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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Yes,

    I've practiced, and when I'm having a good day, I do well. When I'm off, I'm way off.

    I do it more often with the .22 LR upper, however, it is no where the same as a true Glock upper.

    I have been considering purchashing a LaserBlaster-Z, or some Glock laser practice. Then again, could just purchase a laser for the Glock and play the point and see if on target game.
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    Senior Member Array tankdriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I hope so, because if you have that 'once in a lifetime' encounter in a WalMart parking lot, I'll bet that you never have a chance to use your sights...I'm just sayin'...

    Stay armed...practice makes it possible...stay safe!
    Correct. FBI stats say the following about a conformational shooting....

    1 It is less than 6ft
    2 It is over in 3 seconds
    3 It has 3 rounds used.

    So basically you are too close to raise and stick your weapon out where it can be grabbed.

    By the time you do this it is over.

    I use CT laser grips and practice shooting from the waistline with my body at a 45 degree angle and weak hand extended to ward off whatever.

    This was suggested to me years ago by my CCW instructor, who is a TBI agent (TN DEPT of Investigation).
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    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    Do you practice safe s** without a condom??

    Use the sights, especially at any distance farther than arms' length. After all, you are responsible for every bullet you turn loose.
    Ever had broken glass in your eyes? If you don't have a condom, abstinence still works fine. If bullets are flying through the air, abstinence may not be an option. (Actually, I have never had glass in my eyes while bullets were flying, though I have experienced both at different times.)

    Once upon a time, when the front sight flew off my pistol, during a qual course, at close range, I finished the course, out to 25 yards. I didn't miss. No, I didn't get them all within the ten ring, but I didn't "drop" any shots, either. Of course, I didn't fire from the hip, either. I looked over the top of the pistol, which was held at full extension.

    During a recent training session, not a qual, during in-service training, were introduced to the "Stressfire" system. After a bit of practice, came the test, at either five or seven yards; I have forgotten which. In somewhat dim light, with turning targets, we were to fire a sighted group, in a short time frame, which was then examined and pasted-up, and then a group with the Stressfire method, looking over the top of the pistol, focused on the target. I had the advantage of already being familiar with the Stressfire system. My aimed group was LARGER than my Stressfire group, even though I recall that I completed the Stressfire group quicker. The turning of the targets was timed, and I had more leftover time after the Stressfire group.

    Now, some will argue that the Stressfire method, or any other method that looks over the top of the pistol, which is held at extension, is really AIMED fire, not point shooting. Others will argue that it is indeed point shooting. Really, terminology is not so important as results. If I fire a smaller group at five to seven yards, shooting quickly, by focusing on the target, rather than the sights, I am NOT throwing away shots that will nail someone down the street.

    Just to be clear, I am NOT advocating "hip" shooting, though there are some who can do that quite well. I am not even going to get into the debate over what IS hip shooting. I am not a fan of what my PD calls hip shooting, because they insist that some portion of my forearm or elbow be in contact with the side of my body. I get a better index when by elbow is away from my body, and I feel the shoulder muscles starting to tighten.

    OTOH, when I fire from SouthNarc's #2 position, the base joint of my thumb is indexed against my pec muscle, or the body armor over my pec muscle. Of course, nobody is going to mistake this high position for hip shooting, though in principle, it is the similar.

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