Let Me Fling You Another Spring Thing
This is a discussion on Let Me Fling You Another Spring Thing within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Just a couple of thoughts here using the 1911 as an example - you hi-cap guys are on your own. :
As far as downloading ...
March 17th, 2006 02:16 PM
Just a couple of thoughts here using the 1911 as an example - you hi-cap guys are on your own. :
As far as downloading the mags: It seems like using quality 8 round mags and springs from whomever is your preferred company (Wilson, CMC, Mecgar, etc.) and loading only 7 rounds would meet that need while, at the same time, be a functional bonus for the purists who demand 7 round mags for their 1911s.
Also, to quote Qk: "I don't think that flexing a piece of properly hardened & tempered steel within its stress limits affects a properly made spring too negatively." (emphasis mine)
I think that's ultimately more important than how many rounds you choose to load up. There's plenty of knock-off mags on the market using God only knows whose springs - IMHO, those are the ones that just might get you killed. I buy and use CMC or Wilson mags and Wolff springs (throughout the gun) without exception - they've proven themselves reliable to me so, with normal maintanence, I know it's one less factor I have to worry about.
I've only recently heard of ISMI springs so I have no firsthand experience with them, though what I HAVE heard has been good - but I wholeheartedly believe is Wolff's quality and it's all I'll use in my guns.
March 19th, 2006 09:57 AM
You know it's kinda funny about 1911 7-8 round mags. Some swear by the 8 rounders, some swear at 'em. I took Wilson Combat 8 rounders to Gunsite and never had a problem through the week long, 1000 round course.
I might add that when I took my Glock 19 I had several mag problems with perfectly good Glock mags. The instructor explained that when you drop partially loaded mags (we were doing speed load drills) the force of the drop can compress the mag spring and literally jumble the rounds. I had that happen in two consecutive drills. The instructor had been watching for that very problem and explained to us what was going on. I got the impression single stack mags were not quite as likely to have the problem.
March 19th, 2006 10:10 AM
Makes sense to me Tangle, hi-caps have that staggered configuration so the outer portion of the case is resting unsupported in the mag. I never would've thought they be any more prone to "jumbling" than single stack mags but I guess seeing it firsthand would prove it.
March 19th, 2006 10:57 AM
Well my reaction to the "first-hand" experience was to come home and switch to a single stack 1911. I guess I never learn - now I'm carrying a glock 17 again. I think I must be related to a washing machine; I seem to operate in cycles. I just finished a Sig cycle and now I'm in my Glock cycle. I'm sure I'll be rotating through my XD, H&K, Sig and 1911 cycles before long.
BTW, a fellow student had a .45 ACP case eject, spin around and "re-chamber" backwards in a 1911. The immediate action drill requires a "time-out", a lot of time, and some tools to fix.
March 19th, 2006 11:28 AM
VIP Member (Retired Staff)
Let me know Ron when you get to the spin cycle - I wanna watch
I think I must be related to a washing machine; I seem to operate in cycles.
Wow - wonder what the odds are on that happening - huge I would think - nasty!
.45 ACP case eject, spin around and "re-chamber" backwards
Chris - P95
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is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
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March 20th, 2006 12:21 AM
Well, in a real life confrontation I'd think your chances of needing to use that partial mag you dropped (during your tactical reload) as a reload would be very, very slim. Now if you fumbled your spare and dropped it while doing a reload it might be a different story - but what are the chances of needing more than the mag already in the gun (especially a hi-cap) or of your primary mag failing at that particular moment?
The most applicable scenario I can come up with is: The first 10 to 15 rounds (whatever your mag holds) from your well used, well maintained carry weapon have failed to neutralize the threat. In the process of performing a reload, you fumble your well maintained spare mag (I assume you practiced doing that "once or twice" while at Gunsight, right? LOL) and drop it at that particular angle that causes the rounds to become an entangled Gordean knot. Having no other spare, you immediately drop into prone position, grab said fumbled mag and slam it home (all while performing the obligatory barrel roll of course ). Upon gaining a position of cover you discover Mr. BG is still there - so you take aim, squeeze the trigger and hear "CLICK."
I'm as much a 1911 fan as the rest of my fellow zealots, but even JMB himself would say that type of cluster **** in a real world confrontation with a Glock is nighe on impossible. By the time all those stars aligned Murphy'd be asleep in bed with his teddy.
Not trying to be a smart guy, just saying that for the reasons we truly carry, your Glock/Sig/HK/BHP etc. should serve you well enough that a failure of that magnitude should be way, WAY down on the list of concerns.
March 20th, 2006 07:24 AM
You musta missed the part where I said I'm currently carrying the Glock I bought just recently. But I just about would guarantee that I could induce a mag failure without removing the mag from the gun. All it takes is striking a partially loaded mag smartly on the base pad with the mag approximately vertical. I had two jams in row by just dropping the mag so that the mag base hit first. And, I didn't do anything to encourage the mag to have any particular angle - I was just doing speed reloads. It's odd that I got two in a row and the instructor knew what the problem was immediately. He had seen it before. It's not a Glock thing; it's a magazine thing. BTW, my instructor said he had seen a rounds actually flip around backwards IIRC, in single stack mags.
But I agree that the occurance is unlikely because we don't normally speed reload with a lot of rounds left in the mag. We just happened to have fully loaded mags when we started the drills. As we did the drills - fire a shot, speed reload, fire a shot, we got down to that point where jams could occur. In one of my mags, we dug out one jam only to find another beneath the first one.
March 20th, 2006 10:12 AM
I agree, it's very odd. Considering your statement about inducing the jam by hitting the baseplate, I can actually see where that might happen if forced to dive for cover and the butt strikes the ground - that WOULD suck!
As for rounds flipping backward in the mag, whether double or single stack, I'm sort of surprised by that - it's really not something I would've thought likely. Any idea as to what physically has to happen? Seems spring strength would have to be compromised but I'm just guessing.
March 20th, 2006 11:16 AM
First, neither the jams or round flipping can occur with full or very nearly full mags. Still like you say, diving for cover with a partially loaded mag could induce the problem.
I know what causes the problem. When/if a partially loaded mag is dropped, the inertia of the rounds compress the spring. As the spring compresses, the rounds become loose in the mag. The spring absorbs the potential energy of the rounds (from being dropped, not from being fired) and starts to recover and push the rounds upward. If a round gets "cocked" a bit it may cause a blockage.
Then if rotational and or twisting motions are added to the drop, rounds may do all kinds of things. That may explain how a round reverses.
A jam/reversal could happen, but I kinda think it is very unlikely. OTOH, the fact that it can...
What I was doing that was inducing the jams, was picking up the dropped mag and placing in my mag pouch for the next speed reload. After a few rotations, my mags reached the "sensitive" point. If I had topped 'em off after every speed reload, I would have never seen the problem.
Fortunately, if it should happen, at one of those worst moments, and if you have a spare mag, a reload will return the gun to action. If you don't have a spare mag, the gun and mag is out of service. Hmmm, we may be out of service shortly thereafter ourself.
Last edited by Tangle; March 20th, 2006 at 02:49 PM.
March 20th, 2006 12:57 PM
Aha, got it now. I'm slow but I get there eventually . Makes sense, the added weight of more rounds combined with a wide body mag would be more likely to experience the jumbling.
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