Taking Pictures of Guns in Action
This is a discussion on Taking Pictures of Guns in Action within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Tubby45
...Truth be told there are innocent people down range in a gun fight. The world is a 360 degree world.
June 16th, 2009 02:48 AM
Originally Posted by Tubby45
And you account for friendlies during training using inanimate targets...not a real live human being.
There are all manner of means to handle as much.
The reason for doing as much and is the norm toward training and has been for ages, for good and obvious reason.
People in the real world sometimes mess up and hit GGs, just as they do on GG targets in training.
Never mind mechanical device issues occur as well.
This person being downrange to snap shots was unnecessary, reckless, and unsafe to himself as well as the students, the organization, and the facility as well as it's insurance underwriter....and by extension all of us too.
BTW I personally have multiple times trained under '360 degree' live fire conditions, excluding Simunitions/Manmarker FoF training, whilst using handgun and shotgun arms. Across three different courses and completely different instructors. None of which were even remotely akin to this never mind having a live human being aligned as such demonstrated in this video.
In fact I forwarded this video to two of those three instructors earlier today as an FYI under a heading of 'You'll never believe this...!'.
There is no good reason nor benefit to the students training for the as depicted event to have occurred.
Action videos can be very easily and relatively inexpensively managed via remote actuation camera(s) either wired or RF type.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
June 16th, 2009 05:54 AM
I don't expect to change anybody's mind (and don't really care) but I do have a few general thoughts on this matter...
First of all, anytime a short video such as this is posted on the 'net, we don't necessarily get the full context. For example, the video does not tell us who these students were, what sort of build-up there was before this segment, what instructions they were given, the purpose of the drill, etc.
Secondly, there are times that "the 4 cardinal firearms safety rules" and "range safety rules" do not necessarily mean the same thing.
Rule #1 states: "all guns are always loaded/treat all guns as if they are loaded"...not really an issue here since it was a live-fire drill (obviously they knew the guns were loaded since they were shooting stuff with them).
Rule #2 states "never let your muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy." At no point in the video did I see a student sweep the photographer with his/her muzzle, therefore, I fail to see how rule #2 was ever violated.
Rule #3 states: "keep your finger of the trigger until your sights are on target/you have made a decision to shoot." Once again, not seeing this one being violated. To digress for a moment...with the redundancy within the 4 rules, one rule can be broken w/o issue...it's only when two or more are broken that we have the potential for problems (If I have to say it...I'm not recommending that people get lazy about following all of them).
Rule #4 states: "Be sure of your target and what is beyond." In this case, the target was the cardboard silhouette, not the guy with the camera. I didn't see anybody get that mixed up.
Really, the guy was several feet from the target...it would have taken a gross mistake on the part of a student for him to take a round--the type of mistake that would endanger everyone in the area regardless of their position relative to the shooter (e.g. falling and squeezing the trigger due to sympathetic muscle contraction, trying to catch a dropped gun, doing the "brass-dance" with a finger on the trigger, etc.).
Considering the number of times I've been swept by dumbasses at the range, I would submit that he was probably safer standing next to those targets than most of us are standing on the line with the average CCW'er or LEO.
Finally, several people in this thread have said they see no possible value for a drill such as this. I would ask this question...do you think those students have EVER been more focused on making their hits than they were at that point in time? Simunitions are great...FOF training is awesome...inanimate "friendly" targets are useful training aids. However, none of these methods will create the "I absolutely cannot afford to screw up" attitude that I guarantee these students were experiencing.
When you have to make a "hostage rescue" shot on the guy dragging your wife into his car, or shoot the pit-bull that is charging at your 3-year-old daughter do you really want that to be the first time you experience the thoughts/emotions that run through your head at the idea of making a shot with a living, breathing "friendly" downrange?
"Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina
If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.
June 16th, 2009 09:47 AM
I am the cameraman. I appreciate your concern for well being. I am also the Instructor, those people are following my directives.
Some of you guys talk a lot of crap. The rest of you dont even know what you dont know.
Last edited by HotGuns; June 16th, 2009 at 09:00 PM.
Reason: language workaround
June 16th, 2009 09:59 AM
Janq, different instructors have different methods. I never fault the instructor for asking anything of their clients. It is the client's responsibility to step aside or not perform an exercise in which they do not feel comfortable performing. If the clients to the left and right of the camera guy felt they should not be doing what was asked, then they should have kindly been sitting that one out. I don't think the instructor(s) would fault them. Too many instructors are unwilling to bring a client out of their comfort zone. This can be done safely, but some criticize certain methods.
Welcome to DefensiveCarry.com, Mr Gibson.
07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006
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June 16th, 2009 10:12 AM
Thank you . Thank you KenpoTex.
June 16th, 2009 10:13 AM
While there may be an argument for having a live person downrange during training (though one would be hardpressed to get me to agree with it), getting live-action shots on camera is simply not one of them.
Not when there are too many safer ways to get the same shots - and I hardly think anyone can argue that the point of the exercise in this video was shooter training...
All in all, it seems to simply be a stupid decision that puts safety at issue and gives anti-gunners ammo about irresponsible gun-ownership and training.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
June 16th, 2009 10:14 AM
I didn't know you could find that many stupid people in one place. The whole group are a bunch of idiots. I'm supprised that the owner of the range would allow this to happen. I'll bet his insurance company would love a copy of this video.
June 16th, 2009 11:16 AM
Tripods tend to get shot....because it is just a tripod.
If you would like to hear from the actual shooters go to Groupee Login
In the course reviews section is where you can find it. The pictures are also up.
June 16th, 2009 11:25 AM
Well I know that it is very foolish to be down range during a live fire exercise. You may have had your reasons, but it was still foolish.
Originally Posted by jaygibson
I also know that I could shoot that target all day long and not hit you standing next to it. That's not the point. The point is that people are fallible, machines malfunction and unexpected things happen. As I watched the video I kept waiting for you to catch a fragment or a wood splinter. Whatever those photos were meant to accomplish could have been done with a video camera placed downrange before the range went hot.
Lastly I know that I will not attend any of your classes after seeing this stunt. Good day.
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent
June 16th, 2009 11:43 AM
Really... I believe you..
June 16th, 2009 11:44 AM
"Some of you guys talk a lot of crap. The rest of you dont even know what you dont know."
There is one thing I do know and that is that you are one irresponsible individual who sets a poor example before the shooting world. Your conduct, along with the conduct of every person in that video, is indefensible. Bringing folks out of their comfort zones shouldn't include eventual self-sacrifice and, with the obvious noobs observed on that firing line, self-sacrifice is a real possibility. If folks are so witless that they have to attend such a silly course of instruction in order to realize that they absolutely can't afford to screw up then they are incapable of holding a measure of basic common sense and shouldn't touch firearms in the first place.
Do you also offer training in CPR, staunching blood flow, sucking chest wounds, not to mention shooting victim emergency room questioning by law enforcement? How about "Grand Jury 101?" Is "Implications of Manslaughter" on the syllabus along with "Remorse and Lifelong Regret?" Oh, and let's not forget the financial course needed: "Typical Attorney Fees and How to Subsist Without Savings and Assets." The poor foolish shmucks who shell out their treasure to take such courses really deserve the "full" course of study. It's all fine and dandy to posture and strut as a bad boy instructor but such "training" is unnecessary and out of line.
This inane video richly deserves the condemnation it is receiving here on the Forum. It's heartening to see the members recognize it for the foolhardiness that it is. This folly should have never been created much less recorded for all to see.
Thanks to IVron for starting this thread. It is instructive and much may be learned from the video and the comments generated. Concepts of safety and the responsibilities one takes when using a firearm are taught when one views a bunch of immature types foolishly playing with guns as if they were toys.
June 16th, 2009 12:05 PM
Now that you say that , it occurred to me he does appear to be
Originally Posted by Janq
"comfortable" on the video and that tells me he's done more than
Zoe: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?
Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."
June 16th, 2009 12:26 PM
I had received the link to the video from a shooting buddy via e-mail and thought it was some hapless photographer that was talked into taking some action photos. If that was the situation, it would have been bad.
Originally Posted by jaygibson
To later find out that you are the Instructor only makes it worse in my opinion, much worse. If this is what you consider smart, I want to be dumb.
BTW, I'm glad you are still with us. Please re-think this.
Last edited by IVron; June 16th, 2009 at 01:02 PM.
June 16th, 2009 01:06 PM
Is that the same guy who caught the fly ball during the Red Sox game?
June 16th, 2009 01:30 PM
Thats too bad that some of you feel this way. To copy the pictures you right click on them and then proceed.
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