I'm steamed... - Page 2

I'm steamed...

This is a discussion on I'm steamed... within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; You are right to be angry. I would drop that Doc like a bad conversation. Jeeezus...............I can't imagine the nerve of them....

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    You are right to be angry. I would drop that Doc like a bad conversation. Jeeezus...............I can't imagine the nerve of them.


  2. #17
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    Sixto,
    Please forward this photo to your doctor and his staff.

    I've got to say, you have a much better handle on your temper than I do. I might have been inclined to let him come to my home and then made sure I had all the guns out for cleaning when he walked in.

    Some people's arrogance and stupidity amaze me.

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  3. #18
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    Article on Physicians and Gun Counseling Risks (long)

    Sixto,

    I saved this article about physicians counseling related to guns.
    There might be some ideas here.

    Physicians, Don't borrow trouble
    by Joe Horn

    One of the best games in town is litigation, and litigating against physicians is even more popular (and more successful) than suing gun
    manufacturers. Physicians and their malpractice insurance carriers are well aware that litigators are constantly looking for new opportunities to sue. Let's talk about one of those new areas of liability exposure.

    Nowadays, many physicians and other health care providers are engaging in the very risky, well intentioned, albeit naive and politically
    inspired business of asking their patients about ownership, maintenance and storage of firearms in the home, and even suggesting removal of those firearms from the home. Some could argue that this is a "boundary violation," and it probably is, but there is another very valid reason why these professionals should NOT engage in this practice -- MASSIVE LIABILITY.

    Physicians are licensed and certified in the practice of medicine, the treatment of illnesses and injuries, and in preventative activities. They may advise or answer questions about those issues. However, when physicians give advice about firearms safety in the home, without certification in that field, and without physically INSPECTING that particular home and those particular firearms, they are functioning outside the practice of medicine. Furthermore, if they fail to review the gamut of safety issues in the home, such as those relating to electricity, drains, disposals, compactors, garage doors, driveway safety, pool safety, pool fence codes and special locks for pool gates, auto safety, gas, broken glass, stored cleaning chemicals, buckets, toilets, sharp objects, garden tools, home tools, power tools, lawnmowers, lawn chemicals, scissors, needles, forks, knives, and on and on, well, you get the drift. A litigator could easily accuse that physician of being NEGLIGENT for not covering whichever one of those things that ultimately led to the death or injury of a child or any one in the family or even a visitor to the patient's home. Why open the door to civil liability?

    To engage in Home Safety Counseling without certification, license or formal training in home safety and Risk Management and to concentrate on one small politically correct area, i.e., firearms to the neglect of ALL of the other safety issues in the modern home, is to invite a lawsuit because the safety counselor, (Physician) Knew, Could have known or Should have known that there were other dangers to the occupants of that house more immediate than firearms. Things like swimming pools, buckets of water, and chemicals in homes are involved in the death or injury of many more children than accidental firearms discharge [ Source: CDC.] Firearms are a statistically small, nearly negligible fraction of the items involved in home injuries. Physicians SHOULD know that. So, why all of a sudden do some physicians consider themselves to be firearms and home safety experts? Where is their concern for all the other home safety issues that they DON'T cover with their patients? If you are going to counsel in any aspect of home safety, you had better be
    certified in that subject and cover *all* aspects of home safety, not just the politically popular ones.

    Once physicians start down this path of home safety counseling, they are completely on their own. A review of their medical malpractice insurance will reveal that if they engage in an activity for which they are not certified, the carrier will not cover them if (or when) they are sued.

    Consider a physician asking the following questions of his or her malpractice insurance carrier:

    One of my patients is suing me for NOT warning them that furniture polish was poisonous and their child drank it and died. I only warned them about firearms, drugs and alcohol. Am I covered for counseling patients about firearms safety while not mentioning and giving preventative advice about all the other dangers in the home, and doing so without formal training or certification in any aspect of home safety risk management? You know their answer.

    How much training and certification do I need to become a Home Safety Expert Doctor? They will tell you that you are either a pediatrician or you are the National Safety Council. But, you don't have certification to do the National Safety Council's job for them.

    Homeowners and parents are civilly or criminally responsible for the safety or lack thereof in their homes. My advice to physicians is to not borrow trouble by presuming to be able to dispense safety advice outside your area of expertise: the practice of medicine. Your insurance carrier will love you if you simply treat injuries and illnesses, dispense advice on how to care for sick or injured persons, manage sanitation problems and try to prevent disease, but stay out of the Risk Management business unless you are trained and certified to do it. For example, E.R. doctors do not tell accident victims how to drive safely.

    Now, let's discuss the very serious issues involving the lawful possession and use of firearms for self and home defense, and the danger and liabilities associated with advising patients to severely encumber the firearm(s) with locked storage, or advising the patient to remove them entirely. Patient X is told by Doctor Y to remove or lock up a firearm so it is not accessible for self and home defense. Patient X, does as counseled and has no firearm available at close hand. Subsequently, patient is then the victim of a home invasion and calls 911, but the police are buried in calls and don't arrive for 20 minutes during which time Patient X is raped, robbed and murdered. Anyone can see the liability issue here, particularly Risk Management specialists and liability insurance carriers.

    It's just a matter of *when* and not *if* this will happen. Sooner or later, it will - if a home invasion takes place and Patient X takes Doctor Y's advice.

    Now, imagine what follows this horrendous but common event. Who is to blame? The perpetrator is long gone, and even so, the Plaintiff's litigator will state that the perpetrator could have been neutralized by the appropriate lawful defensive use of a firearm, which *had* been in the home, but was no longer available to the deceased/injured because he/she followed a Physician's *expert* advice to render him/herself and his/her home defenseless against violent crime.

    The Litigator will further argue that the Physician Knew, Could have known, Should have known that removing a firearm from use for home defense would result in harm to the patient if and when a crime was committed against the patient in the home, as any reasonable person would have surmised.

    If one acknowledges the already dangerous general liability of home safety counseling and then adds the very risky practice of advising patients to disarm themselves in the face of the reality of violent crime daily perpetrated against home owners, condo and apartment tenants, it is apparent that the Physician is placing him/herself in a very risky position for suit.

    It is my strong recommendation to Malpractice Carriers and those Physicians they insure to strictly avoid this high risk practice and reserve counseling for the area of expertise in which they are certified: Medicine. In my professional opinion, this is an emotionally charged political issue that Physicians and their Carriers should not be manipulated for whatever well-intentioned reason into taking the risk, which is considerable......

    Physicians in doubt of the veracity of what I've said are encouraged to call their carriers and ask them what they currently cover, and to ask if this new counseling policy is covered under the existing policy. We already know what they will say: Don't borrow trouble.
    ***
    Since retiring from the LA County Sheriff's Department, Mr. Horn has provided Risk Management and related issue Human resource consulting to IBM, Gates Lear jet, National Semiconductor, and Pinkerton International Security and Protection Services, among others.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  4. #19
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    They did request a home visit, to ensure I'm properly storing my firearms. Like they'd know anything about it anyway. Morons.

    And yeah, that would be great, have a bunch of guys out back shooting when they come. HAHAHAHA.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #20
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    What a crock. I'd loose alot of sleep over that one.....
    Maybe we should write our president and let him know this sort of thing is going on. He'd be tee'd off ..
    Prepare for the worst and hope it never happens

  6. #21
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    Well, at least you are teaching your kid how to shoot.

    At the rate things are going in this country, he'll need to know two things for certain...

    how to pray...
    and how to shoot...
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  7. #22
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    A doctor talking to my grandchildren about firearms is going to get a quick lecture about 'appropriate conversations' with children.

    Home visit? , "errrrrr, No Thanks!"

    My doctor does not have to make a 'home visit' request to see some of my firearms, one is in her office when I visit.

    We're not going there.
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  8. #23
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    Well, Mr. Sensitive, you just fell prey to the oldest trick in the book. You accepted the premise that what you were doing is wrong. You truly need to reject that and turn it back in their face. Things like:

    You mean you DON'T have guns in your house? How do you protect yourself against home invasion? Your child's life is in grave jeopardy should a criminal/drug addict break in to your house and threaten him with no means to protect him.

    You mean you HAVEN'T taught your kids about gun safety? As a right guaranteed by the Constitution, you absolutely need to teach your kids about how to properly and safely handle a firearm. YOU should be charged with child endangerment for such a blatant act of irresponsibility.

    Well, you get the idea.
    Last edited by ExactlyMyPoint; June 18th, 2009 at 10:21 PM.
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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    What ticks me off most is they all know what I do for a living there. They know there are guns in the house. My boy was just talking to the lady and mentioned that I just gave him a rifle. I did just give it to him last week, so its fresh on his mind.
    Anyway, they made it seem like that was a horrible thing. I'm OK with them giving a safety talk, making sure its locked up blah blah blah, but keep your opinions out of it. Let the kid be proud of his rifle. Now, he thinkks he should be sitting on is backside watching some brainwashing cartoon all day instead of playing outside or learning a valuable life long skill with dad.
    Messed up adults have a knack for messing up kid's heads.

    I'd definitely let the doc know why you won't be back. He should be told to mind his own business.

    He's obviously an arrogant anti know-it-all. I'd like so use more colorful adjectives, but I would probably receive an infraction.
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Winston Churchill

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    They did request a home visit, to ensure I'm properly storing my firearms. Like they'd know anything about it anyway. Morons.

    And yeah, that would be great, have a bunch of guys out back shooting when they come. HAHAHAHA.
    And if open carry is legal where you are make sure all of your buddies have the biggest pistol they own strapped to their side.

  11. #26
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    Sixto, you need to request a home visit of your doctors house. If he does NOT have guns in his house he is willing to let his family be victims of violence. That is child endangerment in my book.
    God invented cops so that firemen could have heroes too!

  12. #27
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    Even though I'm not a open carry type of guy, I think I will be when I go pick up medical records to take to the new doc.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    So they want to give you gun advice?

    How about you give them medical advice, like where to stick their heads?


    If you want to look at the silver lining; I guess that's a pretty ingenious way to get doctors to make house calls these days.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

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  14. #29
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    Home visit????

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    They did request a home visit, to ensure I'm properly storing my firearms. Like they'd know anything about it anyway. Morons.

    And yeah, that would be great, have a bunch of guys out back shooting when they come. HAHAHAHA.
    Who is the "they" that requested a home visit? The doc? The doc's staff? It isn't the doc's business to enter your home [they'll be the first to tell you that if you ever ask for a house call] and the idea should not even have been mentioned.

    If it was the doc's idea, tell the doc to xxxxx off.

    If otoh the doc was stupid enough to try to involve child protective services or whatever they are called where you live, then you might if contacted by them actually need to obtain some legal advice.

    I'm going to guess that you already have some experience accompanying CPS on "home visits," so maybe you know how to handle that, if it goes that far.

    I also understand why your wife might be upset at your telling the doc off. (Did I understand that part right?) Mine hates it when I get involved in stuff she thinks is hers to handle. Problem is, she is too nice to people who are jerks.

    In your case however, given your profession and overall situation, I think your reaction was quite understandable, and I hope Mrs. Sixto settles down. :) Hey, if not they need a new LEO you know where near me. :)

    I am a very big fan of the notion that most patients are entirely too understanding and considerate of their docs and let them get away with too much. There is nothing wrong with telling them off, as you would any other vendor of an expensive service, and firing them, as you would any other vendor of a service where you have become dissatisfied. They are no more entitled to unearned individual respect that anyone else.

  15. #30
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    Bingo

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Even though I'm not a open carry type of guy, I think I will be when I go pick up medical records to take to the new doc.
    Yup, and if lawful to do so, go over there in uniform. Then politely explain why there are guns in your home, why it is none of their business, and why they are now losing your kids as clients. And how you intend to advise other gun owners in your community and other LEOs in your community to keep their kids away from them.

    WOW.

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