This is a discussion on I'm steamed... within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I'm sure this won't keep the formatting, but you can get the idea. This allows you to assess the professional qualifications of a physician relative ...
I'm sure this won't keep the formatting, but you can get the idea.
This allows you to assess the professional qualifications of a physician relative to advice regarding firearms and the danger they present.
Can be found and downloaded (pdf) here...
http://www.2ampd.net/Articles/horn2/...ice%20Form.pdfFIREARMS SAFETY COUNSELING REPRESENTATION:
PHYSICIAN QUALIFICATIONS AND LIABILITY
Part One: Qualifications
I affirm that I am certified to offer (Name of Patient: ), herineafter referred to as
"the Patient", qualified advice about firearms safety in the home, having received:
Specify Course(s) of Study:
Specify Course Completion Date(s):
Specify Accreditation(s), Certification(s), License(s) etc.:
Check one, as appropriate:
___ I represent that I have reviewed applicable scientific literature pertaining to defensive gun use and beneficial results of private
firearms ownership. I further represent that I have reviewed all other relevant home safety issues with the Patient, including those
relating to electricity, drains, disposals, compactors, garage doors, driveway safety, pool safety, pool fence codes and special locks
for pool gates, auto safety, gas, broken glass, stored cleaning chemicals, buckets, toilets, sharp objects, garden tools, home tools,
power tools, lawnmowers, lawn chemicals, scissors, needles, forks, knives, etc. I also acknowledge, by receiving this document, I
have been made aware that, in his inaugural address before the American Medical Association on June 20, 2001, new president
Richard Corlin, MD, admitted "What we don't know about violence and guns is literally killing us...researchers do not have the data
to tell how kids get guns, if trigger locks work, what the warning signs of violence in schools and at the workplace are and other
critical questions due to lack of research funding." (UPI). In spite of this admission, I represent that I have sufficient data and
expertise to provide expert and clinically sound advice to patients regarding firearms in the home.
___ I am knowingly engaging in Home/Firearms Safety Counseling without certification, license or formal training in Risk
Management, and; I have not reviewed applicable scientific literature pertaining to defensive gun use and beneficial results of
private firearms ownership.
Part Two: Liability
I have determined, from a review of my medical malpractice insurance, that if I engage in an activity for
which I am not certified, such as Firearms Safety Counseling, the carrier (check one, as appropriate):
___ will not
cover lawsuits resulting from neglect, lack of qualification, etc.
Insurance Carrier name, address and policy number insuring me for firearms safety expertise:
I further warrant that, should the Patient follow my firearm safety counseling and remove from the home and/or disable firearms
with trigger locks or other mechanisms, and if the patient or a family member, friend or visitor is subsequently injured or killed as a
result of said removal or disabling, that my malpractice insurance and/or personal assets will cover all actual and punitive damages
resulting from a lawsuit initiated by the patient, the patient's legal reprerentative, or the patient's survivors.
Signature of attesting physician and date: __________________________________________________
Name of attesting physician (please print):___________________________________________ _______
Signature of patient and date: __________________________________________________ __________
Name of patient (please print):___________________________________________ _________________
Patient: Indicate if physician "REFUSED TO SIGN." Have physician place a copy in your chart/medical record.
Risk Management Advice to Physicians and Malpractice Insurance Providers: Don't Borrow Trouble
© 2000 by Joe Horn firstname.lastname@example.org
One of the best games in town is litigation, and litigating against physicians is even more popular than suing gun manufacturers. Physicians
and their malpractice insurance carriers are well aware that litigators are constantly looking for new opportunities to sue. Let's talk about one of
those new areas of liability exposure.
Nowadays, many physicians and other health care providers are engaging in the very risky, well intentioned, albeit naive and politically
inspired business of asking their patients about ownership, maintenance and storage of firearms in the home, and even removal of those
firearms from the home. Some could argue that this is a "boundary violation," and it probably is, but there is another very valid reason why
these professionals should NOT engage in this practice -- MASSIVE LIABILITY.
Physicians are licensed and certified in the practice of medicine, the treatment of illnesses and injuries, and in preventative activities. They
may advise or answer questions about those issues. However, when physicians give advice about firearms safety in the home, without
certification in that field, and without physically INSPECTING that particular home and those particular firearms, they are functioning outside the
practice of medicine.
Furthermore, if they fail to review the gamut of safety issues in the home, such as those relating to electricity, drains, disposals, compactors,
garage doors, driveway safety, pool safety, pool fence codes and special locks for pool gates, auto safety, gas, broken glass, stored cleaning
chemicals, buckets, toilets, sharp objects, garden tools, home tools, power tools, lawnmowers, lawn chemicals, scissors, needles, forks,
knives, and on and on, well, you get the drift. A litigator could easily accuse that physician of being NEGLIGENT for not covering whichever one
of those things that ultimately led to the death or injury of a child or any one in the family or even a visitor to the patient's home.
To engage in Home Safety Counseling without certification, license or formal training in home safety and Risk Management and to
concentrate on one small politically correct area, i.e., firearms to the neglect of ALL of the other safety issues in the modern home, is to invite a
lawsuit because the safety counselor, (Physician) Knew, Could have known or Should have known that there were other dangers to the
occupants of that house more immediate than firearms. Things like swimming pools, buckets of water, and chemicals in homes are involved in
the death or injury of many more children than accidental firearms discharge [ Source: CDC.] Firearms are a statistically small, nearly negligible
fraction of the items involved in home injuries. Physicians SHOULD know that. So, why all of a sudden do some physicians consider
themselves to be firearms and home safety experts? Where is their concern for all the other home safety issues that they DON'T cover with
Once physicians start down this path of home safety counseling, they are completely on their own. A review of their medical malpractice
insurance will reveal that if they engage in an activity for which they are not certified, the carrier will not cover them if (or when) they are sued.
Consider a physician asking the following questions of his or her malpractice insurance carrier:
• One of my patients is suing me for NOT warning them that furniture polish was poisonous and their child drank it and died. I only warned
them about firearms, drugs and alcohol. Am I covered for counseling patients about firearms safety while not mentioning and giving
preventative advice about ll the other dangers in the home, and doing so without formal training or certification in any aspect of home
safety risk management? You know their answer.
• How much training and certification do I need to become a Home Safety Expert Doctor? They will tell you that you are either a pediatrician
or you are the National Safety Council. But, you don't have certification to do the National Safety Council's job for them.
Homeowners and parents are civilly or criminally responsible for the safety or lack thereof in their homes. My advice to physicians is to not
borrow trouble by presuming to be able to dispense safety advice outside your area of expertise: the practice of medicine. Your insurance
carrier will love you if you simply treat injuries and illnesses, dispense advice on how to care for sick or injured persons, manage sanitation
problems and try to prevent disease, but stay out of the Risk Management business unless you are trained and certified to do it. For example,
E.R. doctors do not tell accident victims how to drive safely.
Now, let's discuss the very serious issues involving the lawful possession and use of firearms for self and home defense, and the danger and
liabilities associated with advising patients to severely encumber the firearm(s) with locked storage, or advising the patient to remove them
entirely. Patient X is told by Doctor Y to remove or lock up a firearm so it is not accessible. Patient X, does as counseled and has no firearm
available at close at hand. Subsequently, patient is then the victim of a home invasion and calls 911, but the police are buried in calls and don't
arrive for 20 minutes during which time Patient X is raped, robbed and murdered. Anyone can see the liability issue here, particularly Risk
Management specialists and liability insurance carriers.
It's just a matter of *when* and not *if* this will happen. Sooner or later, it will - if a home invasion takes place and Patient X takes Doctor Y's
Now, imagine what follows this horrendous event. Who is to blame? The perpetrator is long gone, and even so, the Plaintiff's litigator will state
that the perpetrator could have been neutralized by the appropriate lawful defensive use of a firearm, which *had* been in the home, but was no
longer available to the deceased/injured because he/she followed a Physician's *expert* advice to render him/herself and his/her home
defenseless against violent crime.
The Litigator will further argue that the Physician Knew, Could have known, Should have known that removing a firearm from use for home
defense would result in harm to the patient if and when a crime was committed against the patient in the home, as any reasonable person
would have surmised.
If one acknowledges the already dangerous general liability of home safety counseling and then adds the very risky practice of advising
patients to disarm themselves in the face of the reality of violent crime daily perpetrated against home owners, condo and apartment tenants, it
is apparent that the Physician is placing him/herself in a very risky position for suit.
It is my strong recommendation to Malpractice Carriers and those Physicians they insure to strictly avoid this high risk practice and reserve
counseling for the area of expertise in which they are certified: Medicine. In my professional opinion, this is an emotionally charged political
issue that Physicians and their Carriers should not be manipulated for whatever well-intentioned reason into taking the risk, which is
Physicians in doubt of the veracity of what I've said are encouraged to call their carriers and ask them what they currently cover, and to ask if
this new counseling policy is covered under the existing policy. We already know what they will say: Don't borrow trouble.
Since retiring from the LA County Sheriff's Department, Mr. Horn has provided Risk Management and related issue Human Resource consulting. Among
other firms, he has consulted to IBM, Gates Learjet, National Semiconductor, and Pinkerton International Protection Services.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
I'm actually pretty decent at keeping my cool and being a total smart ass while I'm ticked. I just wish I was actually there in the office while all this went on.
I like your postings Hopyard and miklcolt45, I might use 'em!
Last edited by SIXTO; June 18th, 2009 at 11:22 PM.
"Just blame Sixto"
I reserve the right to make fun, point and laugh etc.
Sixto, first of all, kudos to you and Mrs., Sixto for gun-proofing your kids early on!
Your boy needs a double scoop of ice cream and a long talk about how PROUD Mom and Dad are that he's an honest boy, and not afraid to talk about things he knows are right. This may be a great opportunity to teach Sixto Jr about Standing Up For One's Principles, and teach him the difference between real American values and a good old-fashioned Sheep Freakout. Boooooo! I mean, "baaaaa!"
Make sure the first thing he understands is that he's not to blame here at all, and you guys are proud of him. Then drop that Doctor like a hot potato. I'd even go so far as to file a grievance with the medical board for harassment or something.
We have a ton of extra room in NC, as long as you don't mind 150-lb lap dogs. And my 10-year old would be thrilled to go to the range with your 5-year old!
And since you are in some sort of area of LE, I gather, shouldn't that speak for itself? (I hope the good Doctor doesn't have a brake light out. lol) Definitely OC when you pick up the records!
Don't frisk me, I am the weapon.
Sig Sauer P239 DAK (9mm)
NRA Member & Pistol Instructor
A while back I thought I read on here about some stat that doctors kill more people than guns. I would try to find it and send the office a copy of it.
An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.
and I don't need another place to stay. She wasn't as mad at me as I thought she would be for firing the doctor. She knows plenty of other docs, and I'm sure she'll have another lined up quickly. I think though that she was a little embarrassed, as the ped doc does surgeries in the same hospital she does. Oh well.
"Just blame Sixto"
I reserve the right to make fun, point and laugh etc.
I forget exactly how it came up in conversation between myself and one of my kids doc's. He carries an XD 9mm..... I love Texas!
Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis
My Doctor asked me..... "do you have guns " .... and I asked him "what did that have to do with my health ?" and in my past job wouldn't it have been hard not to have guns ?
He asked if I keep them away from my grandkids. I told him, "they shoot better and more often than I do " . He was "amazed" at this... (my granddaughter was sitting right there) ... so he looked at her and asked her if she shot guns....
Then... he got an education. He asked if she didn't think she was TOO YOUNG ... and she told him " it has nothing to do with age, it has to do with knowing how to handle them safely and knowing what you are doing ..... even an old person who is not safe with them can hurt someone"... "I"m very safe ".. and explained how to safely handle a gun to him.
She gave him lecture series # 1 thru # 10.
At the end she added, "and, if I'm home alone and someone comes into the house who might want to harm me, I can protect myself".
He has never brought it up again. I don't believe it is any of their business and none of them should be asking the question at all........... what happen to "invastion of privacy" protections ?
Doctors and Guns
Here's some statistics that you may find of interest... (No offense intended to any doctors on this forum.)
(A) The number of doctors in the U.S. Is 700,000
(B) Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year are 120,000
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 17.14%
Statistics courtesy of the U.S. Dept. Of Health & Human Services
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. Is 80,000,000 (yes that's 80 million)
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.001875%
Statistics courtesy of the FBI
So statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, guns don't kill people, doctors do.
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat.
We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson
"Liberalism is a Mental Disorder." -Michael Savage
GOOD Gun Control is being able to hit your target! -Myself
Sadly, the Doctor is following official American Medical Association policy.Read the entire AMA firearms policy. It's an eye-opener.H-145.990 Prevention of Firearm Accidents in Children
Our AMA (1) supports increasing efforts to reduce pediatric firearm morbidity and
mortality by encouraging its members to (a) inquire as to the presence of household
firearms as a part of childproofing the home; (b) educate patients to the dangers of
firearms to children; (c) encourage patients to educate their children and neighbors as
to the dangers of firearms; and (d) routinely remind patients to obtain firearm safety
locks, to store firearms under lock and key, and to store ammunition separately from
firearms;(2) encourages state medical societies to work with other organizations to
increase public education about firearm safety; and (3) encourages organized medical
staffs and other physician organizations, including state and local medical societies, to
recommend programs for teaching firearm safety to children. (Res. 165, I-89;
Reaffirmed: Sunset Report and Appended: Sub. Res. 401, A-00)
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.
Wow, that sucks, I woulda dumped to doc too and tried to find a new one. I can see where most pediatricians think such things (I'm related to one BTW, and we don't quite see eye to eye on firearms). Good job teaching your kids to shoot. I figure by 4 a boy should have a .22, cause 2+2=4
Fortes Fortuna Juvat
Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor
Dang Six, I'm POed and it didn't even happen to me!
What did that idiot think, the kid kept the thing loaded in his room?
Man, I gotta quit drinking Red Bull so late in the evening!
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
You will not get a visit from the Dr. You may get an unanounced visit from children services. Beware, be ready.
Government is out of control
"If gun laws in fact worked, the sponsors of this type of legislation should have no difficulty drawing upon long lists of examples of crime rates reduced by such legislation. That they cannot do so after a century and a half of trying -- " Sen Orrin G. Hatch