.380 Popularity vs. Perceived Lack of Power

This is a discussion on .380 Popularity vs. Perceived Lack of Power within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Here's my take as both a gun dealer and ammunition manufacturer. People are getting into carrying guns more and more. People have to start somewhere. ...

Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456
Results 76 to 88 of 88

Thread: .380 Popularity vs. Perceived Lack of Power

  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Making ammo.
    Posts
    3,047
    Here's my take as both a gun dealer and ammunition manufacturer.

    People are getting into carrying guns more and more. People have to start somewhere. People are also buying small guns for the quick jaunts to the corner store, a BUG as a LEO, or a car jacker gun to toss in the truck panel. I've sold a lot of .380 guns to all sorts of customers for all sorts of reasons. My experience has lead me to observe most people getting .380s are getting them to fill a supportive niche. Some are using them as primary. I know of a police chief here who routinely carries an LCP off duty but a G22 on duty. I know of another officer who carries the issued SW99 on duty with a pocket carried G27 and a KelTec .380 on his ankle.

    As for terminal performance, the .380 is not as effective as others. By that I mean penetration. I could care less about kinetic energy and hate that it is advertised (I do it because my customers want to know). For a sober assailant trying to rob you and he is wearing at most a light jacket, perfect. You get the unlucky card and get a leather jacket wearing druggie hell bent on getting that next fix of smack at any cost, I sure would like something else than a .380 and 6 rounds. Could the .380 do enough damage to the druggie for him to give up and stop the attack? Possibly. Could a larger more service oriented cartridge do better? Possibly.

    For me my choice is 9mm or 10mm. I'm self employed so concealment is the last of my worries (I OC as well). The only .380s I have are store use for load development for my .380 ACP ammo. If I didn't load it, I wouldn't own them.

    The .380s are also very affordable. Many new gun owners are on a budget and don't have much to spend. When asking about a .380 for $350 or less, most gun shops will tell them it will do the job but it's pretty weak, with good (pricey) ammo it will be better. Then they find out the .380 is a fun shooter, like a big ass .22 rimfire.

    My local gun shop had a back order list for .380 in January. I got them to buy some ammo from me a week and a half ago. They ordered 4 cases of .380, 2 cases LRN and 2 cases FMJ. I dropped the 2 cases of LRN off on Wednesday. They went down their list and had 10 boxes left yesterday when I dropped off the 32 H&R and .40 S&W cases they ordered. They also placed an order for 4 more cases of .380, 2 JHP and 2 FMJ and I'm still waiting on bullets for the FMJ stuff. They are looking to be going through about 8-10 cases a month of .380. This is the rural UP where there's maybe 20,000-25,000 people in the county. Crazy I tell you.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #77
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,110
    Quote Originally Posted by Defensive Arms View Post
    ^Irrelevant rhetoric which does nothing to support your losing arguments.

    The opinions and rhetoric in this thread are coming from the .380 advocates, while the facts are coming from the .380 OPPONENTS.
    There are data that masquerade as facts, and there are facts. The mere fact people point to them doesn't make them valuable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Didn't you know that 63.8% of all statistics are made up on the spot?
    On the right track. Some data isn't made up at all. It's real. It simply has little to no value as a predictive instrument due to gross and inherent flaws in the collection, or due to gross and inherent flaws in the assumptions. Such it is with this type of data.

    One-shot-stop percentages (it's hard to call the data "statistics") flat ignore all shootings in which two or more shots were placed on target. Such data ignores target hardness (build, clothing); ignores placement (ie, ricochet, glancing, through the arm/leg, heart shot, whatever); and ignores shooter skill.

    There are simply too many variables in given deaths to know based on a simple tick-mark on a sheet what caused that given bullet to be more or less effective in that instance. The assumption, and that's what it is, has always been: caliber. That is insufficient.

    If all people were running around with single-shot pistols, then we'd have a bit more to go on. But it still would say little about the entire caliber, because of the tremendous variability in factors in specific shootings.

    For those who would do so, don't misunderstand these statements. I don't disagree that there are more-effective rounds. I simply disagree the entire caliber is worthless due to flawed data.

    Think for a moment. These fabled one-shot-stop data rely on actual street shootings about which we know nothing more than a tick-mark on a sheet. We don't the autopsy data, nor the shooter's likelihood of hitting COM. Poor shooters water down the data just a bit, yeah? Yeah.

    All we know is that the recipient died via one shot, or not. About all that tells us is what we already know: .45 makes a larger hole than .40, which makes a larger hole than ... and it doesn't do that very reliably, either.

    Here is one summary that illustrates a few of the relevant flaws: click.

    There is nothing about such data that indicates much at all, pro or con, about the efficacy of an entire caliber. Such data are what they are. But then, that shouldn't be a mystery.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; August 8th, 2009 at 05:11 PM. Reason: spelling
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  4. #78
    VIP Member
    Array SIGP250's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    MO - Rock Ranch
    Posts
    2,247
    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Here's my take as both a gun dealer and ammunition manufacturer.

    People are getting into carrying guns more and more. People have to start somewhere. People are also buying small guns for the quick jaunts to the corner store, a BUG as a LEO, or a car jacker gun to toss in the truck panel. I've sold a lot of .380 guns to all sorts of customers for all sorts of reasons. My experience has lead me to observe most people getting .380s are getting them to fill a supportive niche. Some are using them as primary. I know of a police chief here who routinely carries an LCP off duty but a G22 on duty. I know of another officer who carries the issued SW99 on duty with a pocket carried G27 and a KelTec .380 on his ankle.

    As for terminal performance, the .380 is not as effective as others. By that I mean penetration. I could care less about kinetic energy and hate that it is advertised (I do it because my customers want to know). For a sober assailant trying to rob you and he is wearing at most a light jacket, perfect. You get the unlucky card and get a leather jacket wearing druggie hell bent on getting that next fix of smack at any cost, I sure would like something else than a .380 and 6 rounds. Could the .380 do enough damage to the druggie for him to give up and stop the attack? Possibly. Could a larger more service oriented cartridge do better? Possibly.

    For me my choice is 9mm or 10mm. I'm self employed so concealment is the last of my worries (I OC as well). The only .380s I have are store use for load development for my .380 ACP ammo. If I didn't load it, I wouldn't own them.

    The .380s are also very affordable. Many new gun owners are on a budget and don't have much to spend. When asking about a .380 for $350 or less, most gun shops will tell them it will do the job but it's pretty weak, with good (pricey) ammo it will be better. Then they find out the .380 is a fun shooter, like a big ass .22 rimfire.

    My local gun shop had a back order list for .380 in January. I got them to buy some ammo from me a week and a half ago. They ordered 4 cases of .380, 2 cases LRN and 2 cases FMJ. I dropped the 2 cases of LRN off on Wednesday. They went down their list and had 10 boxes left yesterday when I dropped off the 32 H&R and .40 S&W cases they ordered. They also placed an order for 4 more cases of .380, 2 JHP and 2 FMJ and I'm still waiting on bullets for the FMJ stuff. They are looking to be going through about 8-10 cases a month of .380. This is the rural UP where there's maybe 20,000-25,000 people in the county. Crazy I tell you.
    I'm an 01-FFL I have 20 cases of .380 FMJ and 10 cases of Lead .380 on back order due to ship on Aug 11. It is already sold. Funny you mention a police chief. My neighbor is the ex police chief of our city and lives across the street from me. He pulled out his carry weapon to show me. It was a Sig P232. I did not ask why. He then asked me If I could find him some ammo. So he is on my list. The next day, he came by with a Berreta 1911 and asked me to do a trigger job on it. I sell all kinds of guns and ammo. If people want .380 I sell them, end of story.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
    - Zen Saying

  5. #79
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Making ammo.
    Posts
    3,047
    I've loaded and sold more .380 ammo the last quarter it's amazing. The thing that's going good for me is I can fill orders and ship within 2-3 weeks. My "it will be a while" is 4-6 weeks. And my price seems right.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  6. #80
    Member Array adroitus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Willamette Valley
    Posts
    41
    I carry a Kel-Tec P-3AT on occasion, but only when loaded with cartridges using modern premium personal defense bullets. Historical data on the performance of the .380 ACP has been rendered irrelevant by the ammunition available to today's shooters.

    The performance of these bullets show adequate penetration in all tests intended to mimic real-world ballistics challenges like metal or heavy clothing between shooter and target. Several gun fighting instructors (who should know as well or better than anyone in the world) endorse or recommend these cartridges.

    Right now my P-3AT is loaded with Cor-Bon DPX, and a friend of mine carries Hornady Critical Defense ammo in his. I think both of us are adequately armed for our personal defense.

    That being said, I still prefer to carry my Taurus PT145 when I can (which also is loaded with Cor-Bon DPX.)

  7. #81
    Member Array Chroode's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Panama City Beach, FL
    Posts
    246

    Cool

    .380ACP

    .38 Special

    Pay attention to the test of the .38 snubbie, as it is more the size of a .380.

    Hollowpoints from the .380, match the .38 snubbie.

    We all know that ball ammo has been killing people for decades. Hollow point ammo was developed for police forces to avoid being sued for over penetration and hitting a bystander.

    If you want 16 inch penetration from your .380 use full metal jacket or trunicated cone. FMJ in any caliber provides more penetration, and penetration through barriers, and heavy clothing.

    The Box O' Truth #26 - Little Guns vs. The Box O' Truth - Page 1

  8. #82
    Senior Member Array puncho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    South
    Posts
    521
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    There are data that masquerade as facts, and there are facts. The mere fact people point to them doesn't make them valuable.
    So what facts have you brought of value?

  9. #83
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,110
    Read above. Not all data has the value some believe.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #84
    Senior Member Array puncho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    South
    Posts
    521
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Read above. Not all data has the value some believe.
    Your data have no value other than what you believe.

  11. #85
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    368
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    One-shot-stop percentages (it's hard to call the data "statistics") flat ignore all shootings in which two or more shots were placed on target. Such data ignores target hardness (build, clothing); ignores placement (ie, ricochet, glancing, through the arm/leg, heart shot, whatever); and ignores shooter skill.
    You're making a flatly false statement.

    NOWHERE did I indicate that the 63% figure was only for ONE shot stops.

    So please stop misrepresenting my position in order to make yours seem more believable.

    The 63% figure is for ALL KNOWN shootings involving the .380, whether one shot or twenty shots were fired.

    It was based on official law enforcement records, not hearsay on the street.

    A 37% failure to stop rate doesn't cut it when the lives of my loved ones and myself are on the line.
    "I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly."

    ~ Massad Ayoob

  12. #86
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    368
    9mm Versus .380 ACP For Self-Defense

    By Dick Metcalf, Technical Editor, Shooting Times

    9mm Versus .380 ACP For Self-Defense

    "The .380 is simply not in the same performance class as the 9mm..."
    "The 9mm Wins Hands Down"
    "Overall, the 9mm provides a 40 percent greater wounding effectiveness (based on wound channel surface area) than does the .380."
    "If your personal-defense handgun is going to be a small autoloader, and you are buying it because the chance exists that it may someday have to save your life, the choice between a .380 or a 9mm is still a no-brainer. Get a 9mm."
    "I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly."

    ~ Massad Ayoob

  13. #87
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    26,110
    Quote Originally Posted by puncho View Post
    Your data have no value other than what you believe.
    Okay.

    I provided no data. Nor did I appeal to opinions of "higher" powers. With regard to the data being trundled out as statistics, I merely pointed out the limits of what data collected in that manner purports to indicate. Use it ... ignore it.

    The truth remains. In comparison to a given round, there will always be more- and less-effective rounds, none of which indicate a minimum effectiveness. A tick-mark and a wound (or lack of it) doesn't indicate what factor(s) were at play in the specific shots, hence the conclusion that caliber drives everything doesn't hold water. Uncalibrated tests cannot be used for decisive conclusions in comparisons across broad categories, such as caliber to caliber. Numerous calibrated tests in short-barreled guns of the sort being discussed do show penetration in the 9-12" range, which many sources agree is a reasonable minimum for performance against human targets. (Many sheriff/police test results are out there, from the past 20yrs, available for the searching.)

    In the end, what it comes down to is what penetration and wound channel effects a person is comfortable with. Others will be comfortable with a given level, based on the same "evidence." Accept it. Don't denigrate it.

    The question I'm addressing is not whether a given choice is better/worse. In standardized comparison testing, there is a reasonably clear trend and hierarchy to penetration/wound results. I'm simply addressing the question of claims of insufficiency based on faulty "statistical" comparisons and opinions.

    Then again, none of this is new.

    Round and round.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  14. #88
    Member Array Defensive Arms's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    368
    Guns & Ammo Technical Staff Report

    Perfect Pocket Protection

    The abbreviated Kahr 9mm PM9 could render most .380 autos obsolete.


    "Some of the popular .25s and .32s are smaller than the PM9, but they're not adequately powerful for defensive applications."
    "There are also plenty of comparable-sized .380 autos that are easily miniaturized because of their blowback systems.

    But in my view, .380s are not even marginally powerful for personal defense, as some contend.

    By virtue of its power and small size, the PM9 virtually obsoletes the pocket .380s."
    "I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly."

    ~ Massad Ayoob

Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. CDP Compact Popularity?
    By monkeystomach in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: February 27th, 2009, 09:16 PM
  2. Popularity of .45?
    By 1911packer in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: November 6th, 2007, 06:12 AM
  3. Gerber popularity?
    By BAC in forum Defensive Knives & Other Weapons
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: June 6th, 2007, 03:49 PM
  4. Pistol Popularity
    By Bumper in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: June 19th, 2005, 10:33 AM

Search tags for this page

.380 popularity

,

.380 shootout

,
380 acp popularity
,
380 auto autopsy shootings
,

380 shootout

,
7.65 vs .380
,

7.65 vs 380

,
7.65mm vs .380
,
7.65mm vs 380
,
bersa thunder cc grips
,
bersa thunder cc vs pf-9
,
gunfight 380 cal
Click on a term to search for related topics.