Some True History

This is a discussion on Some True History within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Gun History After reading the following historical facts, read the part about Switzerland twice A LITTLE GUN HISTORY In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun ...

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Thread: Some True History

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    Some True History

    Gun History


    After reading the following historical facts, read the part
    about Switzerland twice


    A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
    In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control.. From 1929 to
    1953,
    about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were
    rounded
    up and exterminated.


    ------------------------------

    In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5
    million
    Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
    exterminated.


    ------------------------------

    Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945 a total
    of13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were
    rounded up and exterminated.


    ------------------------------
    China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million
    political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
    exterminated

    ------------------------------

    Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000
    Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
    exterminated.


    ------------------------------

    Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000
    Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
    exterminated


    ------------------------------

    Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million
    educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and
    exterminated.

    -----------------------------


    Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century
    because of gun control: 56 million.


    ------------------------------

    You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians
    disseminating this information.

    Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes,
    gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens

    Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

    The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them
    of this history lesson.

    With guns, we are 'citizens.'


    Without them, we are 'subjects'.

    During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew
    most Americans were ARMED!

    If you value your freedom, please spread this anti-gun control message
    to all of your friends.

    The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in
    defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more
    than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is
    supplemental.


    SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!


    SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.


    SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY
    CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!


    IT'S A NO BRAINER!


    DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS
    IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.

    I'm a firm believer of the 2nd Amendment!


    If you are too,
    please forward.
    Just think how powerful our government is getting!


    They think these other countries just didn't do it right.


    Learn from history.


    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
    - Zen Saying

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    Member Array Loadedtech's Avatar
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    Kinda scary isn't it?
    CHP holder. EDC G27. I support VCDL, so glad to have them fighting for my rights.

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    Distinguished Member Array Stetson's Avatar
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    Politician's look back at history with revisionist ideas.They tend to overlook the
    truth ! Our country is at real economical risk,how long due you think we could
    sustain a massive war like the second world war with out the cash to pay for
    the material,transportation,soldiers for 5 plus years.The United States provided billions of dollars of aid to the allies.During World War two we use movie stars ,sports figures and battle field heroes that went on bond drives to support
    the war effort.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loadedtech View Post
    Kinda scary isn't it?
    Yes, it is. What's even worse is that supposedly bright people in our own country dismiss most of this as hogwash. And yet, it's established historical fact. Our politicians don't want to face the fact that we're on a path well-trod by most every two-bit, absolutist dictatorship in the past 100yrs ... and that it's highly likely to end in the extermination of large groups of the population due to political whim, out of supposed political necessity. What's truly scary is that so few believe it's possible.

    I don't see it as inevitable, necessarily. But I'm not so naive and wishful as to think that some sort of social nirvana exists on the far side of all this invasiveness and willingness to skirt the Constitution's protections. BIG government can have but one result: BIG invasiveness, in the end. That can't be good, if once it drives off the rails. Caution is due, if for no other reason than history is a strong indicator on this one.

    With guns, we are 'citizens.'

    Without them, we are 'subjects'.
    Exactly so. Yet, even armed citizens can be heavily over-powered, when the power is monstrously centralized. Being armed, alone, doesn't guarantee anything. A central power needs to be reined-in and have its claws kept short, even more so when it displays a history of willingness to ignore the Constitution and protections when it suits them as a power independent of the People.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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    Sig250 I copied that post into a word document to save so I can reference it later as needed. I hope you don't mind.

    Thanks for that little tidbit of historical note! It will come in handy.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Cherry picking. It is not a history lesson, people need to learn all the facts before making an argument.

    For example, from Wiki (search Gun politics in Switzerland), "To carry firearms in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragschein (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security."

    So that means most of us on this forum WOULD NOT QUALIFY for a CC permit in Switzerland!!! If high levels of gun ownership = low crime rate, then given the example, are you not also stating few CC permits = low crime rate? Then also consider the United States, high levels of gun ownership = comparatively easy access to legal carry = high crime rate. The argument being made is for an increase in restrictions if Switzerland is the example.

    The entire argument made in the OP is flawed. Plenty of countries have 0 gun control with a great deal of violence, and an AK-47 in every hut. To equate firearm violence to one fact, private firearm ownership, is about the same logic as the other side. Then also, consider Norway, with a similiar crime rate as Switzerland, has many regularions (mostly registration and transportation related) that if implemented in the U.S. would have several on this forum quoting "history." BTW, those registration and transportation related firearm regulations are about the same in Switzerland as Norway.

    The far more likely causes of violence are far more likely related to:

    1) Several issues considered politically incorrect to mention.
    2) Income level.

    I am not trying to make the case for or against gun control in this post. I'm just stating that Switzerland is a poor example, because IMO, many anti-gun would be more then happy to provide for you the same restrictions as Switzerland.
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    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Violence is a symptom of selfishness, an inseparable element of human nature. Whether it takes the form of greed, lust for power, ego, or pure disregard for other people, it is the root of violence. The weapon is irrelevant, as is economic status, political or sexual orientation, ethnicity, or geographic location. People often cite low income as being a "cause" of violence but the fact is that the "poor" make up the better part of any country's population. Naturally it would have the highest violent crime numbers, especially considering that people of wealth and influence have better resources with which to exercise their aggression.

    At any rate, the attacker cannot be controlled by law, only punished after the fact; assuming he can be identified, caught, and convicted. The only good a gun law can do is determine whether or not the law-abiding can be armed in their own defense because it is only the law-abiding who will obey it.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpwing View Post
    ...The weapon is irrelevant, as is economic status, political or sexual orientation, ethnicity, or geographic location. People often cite low income as being a "cause" of violence but the fact is that the "poor" make up the better part of any country's population. Naturally it would have the highest violent crime numbers, especially considering that people of wealth and influence have better resources with which to exercise their aggression...
    Sure crime happens every where. However, there is a factual correlation to income level and violence, and until addressed, will continue (well, assuming if addressed it will change). If you can provide an example of high income communities in the U.S. with high violent crime rates, let me know, because I can't find them. The only studies I've found that counter crime rates low vs high income is that middle-income communities have higher crime rates than low (matters how the crime rate is measured, and gets into some non-PC issues aka criminals travel to the middle-income communities).

    Maybe it is because the wealthy have access to protection (forget the access to influence and legal resources). IDK, not the main topic of the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by jumpwing View Post
    ...At any rate, the attacker cannot be controlled by law...
    Agree, I would only add being armed does not prevent violence, just a chance it changes the outcome, those are the examples to look for.
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    Sure crime happens every where. However, there is a factual correlation to income level and violence, and until addressed, will continue (well, assuming if addressed it will change).
    Yes and no.

    Things like correlation rate the larger picture's tendencies. Like anything viewed from 10,000 feet, however, it misses the granularity you get on the street. There will ALWAYS be crime, 'cause humans are what they are. There will ALWAYS be those who get off on the power trip, the blood, the fact that they're able to get away with something, or a hundred other motivators.

    I have seen nothing that helps predict the likelihood of any of these sorts of motivators crossing someone's path in a year. And so, we're still left with the random aspect.

    Until the ACME Criminals' Union Local #243 sends me a regular calendar of upcoming events, I'll still not know when the next situation's going to happen. I suspect most folks are in possession of a wonky crystal ball, as well.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    The bottom line is that ARMED societies give any dictator or tyrant a moment to pause and think about what he is doing; an unarmed populace is an open invitation to tyranny.

    We are the most well armed civilian populace in recorded history, and we need to make sure we keep it that way. After all, we are still not out of the woods yet, and we may well need them for the unthinkable.....
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    ...I have seen nothing that helps predict the likelihood of any of these sorts of motivators crossing someone's path in a year...I suspect most folks are in possession of a wonky crystal ball, as well.
    I once was at the same table for lunch as a very wealthy man (100s of millions, but not a billionaire). I don't know how the topic resulted in a statement I'll never forget. The multi-millionaire was complaining about the run of the mill millionaire (several were also at the table), who he could own many times over, but were always competing for the same products. So he had to often purchase something at more then its value, if he wanted it, and it was in limited supply, biding against millionaires.

    Boy to have those problems.

    However it think the reason you see low income crime against middle to high income is simple. Where else are criminals going to get the products they want. I don't think it is crystal ball stats, just a reality of where supply and demand are. The reason lower wealth crime is more violent is not, IMO, because the lower income have a greater number of vioilent criminals, but because for the % with that weak moral fiber, there is less to lose. A wealth person with poor moral fiber, in theory, or less motovation because there are easier methods foer them to aquire an item, has more to lose, and would take a less violent, less risky, path.

    Again, naturally there are exceptions, but there is also a norm.

    Sorry if this is side tracking the OP. Still think the OP history lesson is a poor example(s) of pro-2A arguments. Further plenty of societies were armed, but were conquered from within. Being armed, does not prevent violence, just helps to alter the possible outcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    I once was at the same table for lunch as a very wealthy man (100s of millions, but not a billionaire). I don't know how the topic resulted in a statement I'll never forget. The multi-millionaire was complaining about the run of the mill millionaire (several were also at the table), who he could own many times over, but were always competing for the same products. So he had to often purchase something at more then its value, if he wanted it, and it was in limited supply, biding against millionaires.

    Boy to have those problems.

    However it think the reason you see low income crime against middle to high income is simple. Where else are criminals going to get the products they want. I don't think it is crystal ball stats, just a reality of where supply and demand are. The reason lower wealth crime is more violent is not, IMO, because the lower income have a greater number of vioilent criminals, but because for the % with that weak moral fiber, there is less to lose. A wealth person with poor moral fiber, in theory, or less motovation because there are easier methods foer them to aquire an item, has more to lose, and would take a less violent, less risky, path.

    Again, naturally there are exceptions, but there is also a norm.

    Sorry if this is side tracking the OP. Still think the OP history lesson is a poor example(s) of pro-2A arguments. Further plenty of societies were armed, but were conquered from within. Being armed, does not prevent violence, just helps to alter the possible outcome.
    It is easy to site what anyone can look up for themselves on the internet. Have a look at this link. GunCite-Gun Control-International Homicide Comparisons

    It seems you are pro gun control.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
    - Zen Saying

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    Senior Member Array TucAzRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    The bottom line is that ARMED societies give any dictator or tyrant a moment to pause and think about what he is doing; an unarmed populace is an open invitation to tyranny.

    We are the most well armed civilian populace in recorded history, and we need to make sure we keep it that way. After all, we are still not out of the woods yet, and we may well need them for the unthinkable.....
    Well said..

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    I've seen this before somewhere. This time I've also saved it in my documents. Thanks for the post.

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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    It is easy to site what anyone can look up for themselves on the internet. Have a look at this link. GunCite-Gun Control-International Homicide Comparisons

    It seems you are pro gun control.
    Please believe any tone you read in this post is not intended to be confrontational. I'm just sharing that I think the facts provided do not support your statements.

    It is your OP that supported the pro-control view. In the OP you are suggesting Switzerland's firearm policies, a country that does not issue many CC permits, would help reduce firearm violence. The information you posted lead you to believe that Switzerland is a good, individual right to bear arms example, because there is a high level of firearm ownership. However Switzerland is not a good example for 2A support, do to the transportation and carry method restrictions.

    Now your new link in the above post, provides information that supports my statement that private gun ownership of a population does have a correlation to the crime rate of that population. The facts provided are arbitrary, as in based solely upon an individual's opinion or discretion. So in the link, that is why the author used the heading "Arbitrary Comparisons Between Countries."

    There are no solid facts that private ownership of firearms prevents firearm violence or prevents attempted coups on that society. It may change the outcome after the fact, but there is no proof it stops the attempted event.

    IMO, there is a possibility that private ownership of firearms does incease "firearm violence." I doubt it would change that population's overall violence. There will be exceptions. Still, compared to populations with little private ownership, those with firearms could have some increase in the overall use of firearms in a crime. For example, China reportedly has very little gun violence, and private ownership is heavly restricted. Plenty of other violent crimes in China to make up for this.

    Take a look at car jackings. Back when you could hot wire a car, car jackings were few. Once anti-theft ignitions increased, car jackings increased. Net result, fewer thefts, more dead drivers. As is often the case, the criminals adapt. Once firearms are the norm, the crimes become more violent. This is not an argument against gun ownership, as the ownership does not change the attempted crimes, but does have a way of equalizing the situation.

    For example, in the U.K. I believe they have a greater number of deaths by bludgeons. Now the average street thug is going to have more physical fighting skills than your average potential victim. However you give each a firearm, and the odds get better for the potential victim.

    PS - Since we are talking history, historically Switzerland would be an example of a militia driven and hunting related right to bear arms as apposed to the U.S., that has an both a militia and individual right and is unrelated to the privlage of hunting. Not a perfect analogy, but would make a good read.
    Last edited by Thanis; September 16th, 2009 at 05:06 AM.
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