Help/tips after range time today

This is a discussion on Help/tips after range time today within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I went to the gun range today and shot a handgun for the first time in many years. I rented a Glock 23 and shot ...

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Thread: Help/tips after range time today

  1. #1
    Member Array CJ810's Avatar
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    Help/tips after range time today

    I went to the gun range today and shot a handgun for the first time in many years.

    I rented a Glock 23 and shot 50 rounds through it.

    I realized quickly that I was pulling to the right, badly on every shot. I finally reached the point where I could hit the bullseye or at least the first circle consistently by aiming for the left edge of the #8 circle exactly even with the bullseye.

    One of the Range Officers suggested that I was probably squeezing the gun too tightly and maybe aiming low (anticipating recoil). Does anyone agree or have other suggestions? Based on my current situation I'd have to aim for a BG's right armpit to have any certainty of hitting him in the chest. !

    I did find some improvement when I squeezed the trigger rather than pulling it. I also realize that because it was the first time in many years I was nervous, out of my element, and well aware that I was operating a deadly instrument. I know I was very tense, and I think my posture was too parallel to the target rather than angled away with my weak side toward the target as I think it should have been.

    I'm also not sure I was sighting correctly.

    As far as the gun itself, I'm wondering if the 23 is thicker than the 19, and if the 19 would therefore be a little easier to hold and fire.

    I had planned to try 9mm but after reading the thread with the analysis by the coroner I had been swayed toward the larger 40cal.

    I would appreciate any advice anyone might have.

    Thanks,

    Cliff

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  3. #2
    Member Array diverdown247's Avatar
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    Ammo type and distance would be nice to help folks provide assistance.

    Likely that you're shooting left was a result of unfamiliarity with the G23 (not shooting in a while) and the fact that it was a rental.

    However, I was reminded of something important tonight at my local range. If you have larger hands, you might have issues pushing to the left and suspect it's trigger finger. It might actually be that your trigger finger is straight down the frame rather than "hooked" to allow minimal contact with the trigger finger on any part of the firearm other than the trigger.

    What happens if the finger is straight down the frame is this: you begin to squeeze the trigger and the meaty portion of your finger that is against the frame (because it's large and not hooked) begins to bunch up creating a bulge against the frame. That flexation of the meaty portion has to go somewhere, so either your finger gives (and pushes/pulls the trigger) or the frame moves to the left (this is the more likely) in response to the bulging meaty portion.

    I had to give a guy a quick military-style PMI to correct exactly this and he was inside a 6 inch circle at 10 yards with his XD, groups were 10-12 inches before. Glad he listened and performed the actions as directed.

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    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    G23 and G19 are the same size. Forget about the coroner thread - if you do the research, you'll find the guy is bogus and his conclusions don't amount to much. Try the G19 and stick with what you shoot best with - that's what's most important as long as the gun is reliable. I have a G23, but got it long ago when there was a bigger difference btwn the cartridges.

    Do a search here for cross eye dominance first to eliminate that possible problem.

    google "sight picture" to see what you're looking for. Look up isosceles stance and modified weaver on youtube, try them out, see what's more comfortable. Take a class or two. Take a class or two. (2x on purpose). Are you right or left handed?

    Here's a good vid on a proper grip. Check out his other vids on shooting. Get a high grip on the pistol w/o getting your hand in the way of the slide. Wrap your weak hand around your strong hand and pull back with weak hand push forward with strong hand to lock gun in place. Slow steady press straight back on trigger. Focus intently on the front sight and let the rear sight and target blur. Crisp front sight in center of blurry bullseye is what you're looking for.

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I would suggest you start with a 22 and learn good shooting technique without dealing with any recoil,also at the range before you ever fire a live round dry fire the weapon and concentrate on squeezing the trigger and breath control while keeping the sights on target til you hear a click,then reset the trigger and squeeze again,once you keep the sights on target without flinching then load the gun and repeat the steps again slow firing the gun and squeezing not jerking the trigger.trying to compensate for bad shooting skills by holding off target,will only continue to enforce those bad shooting skills and you will be spraying shots all over the place.If you have a bb or airsoft gun at home or can borrow one you can practice dryfiring techniques at home just like a real gun
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diverdown247 View Post
    Ammo type and distance would be nice to help folks provide assistance.

    Likely that you're shooting left was a result of unfamiliarity with the G23 (not shooting in a while) and the fact that it was a rental.

    However, I was reminded of something important tonight at my local range. If you have larger hands, you might have issues pushing to the left and suspect it's trigger finger. It might actually be that your trigger finger is straight down the frame rather than "hooked" to allow minimal contact with the trigger finger on any part of the firearm other than the trigger.

    What happens if the finger is straight down the frame is this: you begin to squeeze the trigger and the meaty portion of your finger that is against the frame (because it's large and not hooked) begins to bunch up creating a bulge against the frame. That flexation of the meaty portion has to go somewhere, so either your finger gives (and pushes/pulls the trigger) or the frame moves to the left (this is the more likely) in response to the bulging meaty portion.

    I had to give a guy a quick military-style PMI to correct exactly this and he was inside a 6 inch circle at 10 yards with his XD, groups were 10-12 inches before. Glad he listened and performed the actions as directed.

    A good analogy in my opinion. weed out a tiny bit, and you'll get the gist of it. Yes...the G19 and G23 are exactly the same size. Barring the sights on the pistol being off (which is also very possible being a rental), there may be a combination of recoil anticipation, trigger finger, and unfamiliarity with the pistol.

  7. #6
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    Use the chart Ram Rod provided to analyze what you were doing wrong. Remember it could be any one or combination of things causing the problems. I would also recommend trying other makes of guns. 1 make of gun does not work for everyone. I personally don't like the way a Glock fits my hand. Not saying they're not good guns, just not a good gun for me. Keep renting different makes until you find what works for you.

    As far as caliber, I wouldn't worry about what the "experts" say. If you do your job and place your shots where they need to go, a 9mm with a good defensive load (I like Federal HST), will do it's job. Nothing to back up my statement, but I'd bet the 9mm have put more bad guys away than any other semi auto caliber except .45ACP.

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    Senior Member Array Jmac00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ810 View Post
    I went to the gun range today and shot a handgun for the first time in many years.

    I rented a Glock 23 and shot 50 rounds through it.

    I realized quickly that I was pulling to the right, badly on every shot. I finally reached the point where I could hit the bullseye or at least the first circle consistently by aiming for the left edge of the #8 circle exactly even with the bullseye.

    One of the Range Officers suggested that I was probably squeezing the gun too tightly and maybe aiming low (anticipating recoil). Does anyone agree or have other suggestions? Based on my current situation I'd have to aim for a BG's right armpit to have any certainty of hitting him in the chest. !

    I did find some improvement when I squeezed the trigger rather than pulling it. I also realize that because it was the first time in many years I was nervous, out of my element, and well aware that I was operating a deadly instrument. I know I was very tense, and I think my posture was too parallel to the target rather than angled away with my weak side toward the target as I think it should have been.

    I'm also not sure I was sighting correctly.

    As far as the gun itself, I'm wondering if the 23 is thicker than the 19, and if the 19 would therefore be a little easier to hold and fire.

    I had planned to try 9mm but after reading the thread with the analysis by the coroner I had been swayed toward the larger 40cal.

    I would appreciate any advice anyone might have.

    Thanks,

    Cliff
    That "PIE" chart is a good start, but I would use it as a General Rule of Thumb.

    I would suggest (without seeing you shoot) that you have to much grip with your right hand and to little grip with your left. You want more grip with your left hand, loosen up your right hand and use LESS finger on the trigger. You just want enough finger on the trigger to make it work (about half the width of your finger nail)

    Your anticipating the shot and pulling the gun to the right.

    BUT!!!! you really need a trainer to watch you shoot and diagnose your problem.( and a couple thousand rounds down range wouldn't hurt )
    HAPPY NEW YEAR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    A good analogy in my opinion. weed out a tiny bit, and you'll get the gist of it. Yes...the G19 and G23 are exactly the same size. Barring the sights on the pistol being off (which is also very possible being a rental), there may be a combination of recoil anticipation, trigger finger, and unfamiliarity with the pistol.
    Just want to point out that this diagram id for a right-handed shooter. If you are a lefty, adjust accordingly!
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  10. #9
    Member Array jjkjr's Avatar
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    remember though lefthanders you would have to reverse this chart
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  11. #10
    Member Array CJ810's Avatar
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    I'm right handed.

    I don't know about the distance, I looked but didn't see a marking for it. It was on the second line which I think was about 20 or 25 feet down range.

    I didn't get the type of load, it was a box that the range provided/sold me for the range time. They don't allow you to pick up your brass unless you're using your own reloads. I did find one the next morning with my loose change. I'm figuring it bounced off the divider on the range station and landed in my pocket. Stranger things have happened.

    Anyway the marking on the shell casing is J 40 S&W PMC. I don't know if that helps. I figure next time I go back to the range I'll take them the shell casing, because I think if they don't want you picking them up they must do reloads. I certainly don't have any use for it at the moment. That will give me a chance to find out what the loads were.

    I actually liked the feel of the gun in my hand. It might have been a little thick, but I think I would get used to it.

    I'm 5' 6 3/4" and weigh 210. I have a gut but am not obese. (Well a doctor might disagree with me on that, but what do they know? I figure if my waist is smaller than my suit/chest size, even if only by 2 to 4 inches, I'm not actually obese.) All that to ask is the 23 a realistic carry gun, most likely at 4 to 5oclock? Probably not at 3. (Does anyone carry at 6?)

    I typically wear khakis and pullovers, occasionally button front sport shirts. Am planning for IWB tuckable.

    Renting is a little expensive. I'm going to see if someone I know has a Glock 9mm I can use at my father in law's gun club (pretty sure he doesn't, he's a competition skeet shooter). I'd like to shoot the 9mm for comparison purposes, but I am inclined toward the 40. The kick wasnt terrible. I think I'd get used to it.

    For the moment I think I'm going to stick with trying the Glocks because that thread recently that asked about gun purchase regrets seemed (haven't read it recently) to mention Glock the least. Though I do typically prefer to buy american and some of the others are less $$.

    I will look up the stance suggestions right now.

    Thanks for all of the tips, and any more would be appreciated.
    Last edited by CJ810; September 14th, 2009 at 01:23 PM. Reason: additional info

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array TheShadow's Avatar
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    There are a lot of variables that can affect accuracy.

    Others have posted about the correct and consistent grip, anticipating recoil, to much or to little finger on the trigger etc. When you get these down there are a couple more things that will help you fine tune your accuracy.

    When your breathing and press the trigger the shots tend to go either up or down. Some people exhale hold there breath then press the trigger. Others after they inhale and some will take a half breath and hold. Focus focus focus on the front sight only and let the target become blurry. These two things helped my accuracy more than anything else. (after the consistent correct grip)


    I did mention FOCUS on the front sight only

    ETA: focus was covered by nedrgr21
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    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    A little more info for you...

    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

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    Member Array cz2075bd's Avatar
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    some dry firing exercises might help. This can be total dry firing, or mix in a snap cap randomly into your magazine. Keep your eyes on the front sight and when you dry fire, take notice of how it moves off target.

    using a laser sight to see if your point of aim is flinching may also help

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array Jmac00's Avatar
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    Try a RPG or a grenade.......problem solved

    just kidding
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  16. #15
    Member Array CJ810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cz2075bd View Post
    some dry firing exercises might help. This can be total dry firing, or mix in a snap cap randomly into your magazine. Keep your eyes on the front sight and when you dry fire, take notice of how it moves off target.

    using a laser sight to see if your point of aim is flinching may also help
    I have seen snap caps referenced in several threads. Are they available and safe with any gun? Are they just like caps for a capgun in that they make a sound but have no projectile?

    Thanks.

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