Growing Number of Detroit Pastors Wear Handguns in Pulpit

This is a discussion on Growing Number of Detroit Pastors Wear Handguns in Pulpit within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by jumpwing I like how, once again, Jesus is portrayed in the media as one who taught non-violence at all times and at ...

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Thread: Growing Number of Detroit Pastors Wear Handguns in Pulpit

  1. #16
    Member Array Random's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpwing View Post
    I like how, once again, Jesus is portrayed in the media as one who taught non-violence at all times and at any cost. As if the Bible fundamentally prohibits a Christian from defending himself with force. (It does not.)
    You get the same thing with Buddhism - it's not just limited to Christianity.

    I think that "non-violence" has been mis-used, however. Jesus and Buddha did not teach PACIFISM, but I think they DID teach "non-violence" - that is, they did not teach that you should not use violence for any reason whatsoever, rather, they taught that violence was to be avoided as much as possible. There is a HUGE difference between those positions.

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  3. #17
    Member Array CJ810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpwing View Post
    Side note: Cutting off the ear is achieved when the target dodges sideways to avoid the swordstroke aimed at cutting off his HEAD. Peter wasn't screwing around, he meant business.

    I like how, once again, Jesus is portrayed in the media as one who taught non-violence at all times and at any cost. As if the Bible fundamentally prohibits a Christian from defending himself with force. (It does not.)

    And of course, the story closes out with the "Why doesn't God protect you?" question. At least the pastor had the right idea with his response. Any god who matches the Christian, Jewish, or even Muslim description isn't going to have human values and priorities, nor will its behavior be answerable to human reasoning.
    I liked that info about the ear wound being the result of missing on the mortal strike. That's really interesting.

    I agree that we have the right, spiritually, to defend ourselves, but what do you make of Jesus's statement in this same situation quoted in Matthew 26:52:
    Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array lance22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ810 View Post
    I liked that info about the ear wound being the result of missing on the mortal strike. That's really interesting.

    I agree that we have the right, spiritually, to defend ourselves, but what do you make of Jesus's statement in this same situation quoted in Matthew 26:52:
    Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
    I think all He was saying was that it was His mission to give his life so no sense fighting. He didn't come to start a revolution against Rome or to form an army, His concern was spiritual in nature and his Kingdom spiritual in nature. And yeah, those who would have taken the sword against Rome certainly would have died by the sword, as do those (generally speaking) who go pro with fighting. And, the sword has it's place, of course - rightful use by someone not looking to use it but who can to protect life.

  5. #19
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    I agree with Lance's take. It speaks to me of the intent of the person with the sword. I don't consider carrying for defense "living by the gun." Being a crook and using it to take advantage of others though, I would consider "living by the gun."

    And to the Mega church thing. We are getting close to that size. My church did a second mile giving push 2 weeks ago. When I heard how much was given my immediate thoughts were this.

    1. Wow, that's a lot of money.
    2. I am glad I now carry to church.
    3. It's not if, but when, someone decides that it's too much money to not try and get it.

  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ810 View Post
    I agree that we have the right, spiritually, to defend ourselves, but what do you make of Jesus's statement in this same situation quoted in Matthew 26:52:
    Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
    Jesus was reminding Peter of Jewish laws against aggressive bloodshed. Bear in mind that the men who showed up in the garden of Gethsemane that night were not a random mob bent on attacking Jesus, they were high ranking Roman and Jewish officials who were there to place Him under arrest. Regardless of their intentions, they were following prescribed protocols and a lethal defense was not justified.

    Also remember that Jesus was there for the purpose of being arrested, tried, and crucified. Starting a brawl at that point would have been counterproductive and resulted in useless bloodshed.

    And yes, "living" by the sword refers to one who makes his living through violence (this does NOT refer to legitimate soldiers, by the way).

    The laws he referred to can be found in:

    Genesis 9:6
    "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed..."
    This refers to murderers, not those whose defense ends up being lethal.

    Exodus 21:12
    "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death."
    Continued reading adds context to this. This is one of the laws God gave Moses to put before the Jews regarding intentional killing (murder). The next verse addresses accidental killing.

    The distinction is made between intentionally killing someone and an attacker ending up dead because you defended yourself. This lines up nicely with what all of us consider responsible behavior: keep your words and conduct polite; avoid trouble; if confronted make a sincere attempt to defuse the situation, leave if possible, give all parties involved every reasonable chance to walk away peacefully.

    There are times when things happen so fast that you've been robbed of the opportunity to defuse or avoid or escape. Any omniscient god will be aware of this contingency; any merciful god will look closer at what was in your heart than at what you did with your hands.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  7. #21
    Member Array Marvin Knox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    ..........And to the Mega church thing. We are getting close to that size. My church did a second mile giving push 2 weeks ago. When I heard how much was given my immediate thoughts were this.

    1. Wow, that's a lot of money.
    2. I am glad I now carry to church.
    3. It's not if, but when, someone decides that it's too much money to not try and get it.
    Our church services have several thousand people in many services. It is a lot of money especially when there is a special offering in the works.

    We watch for "bucket snatchers" and such. We show ourselves clearly when the doors to the back room are opened for the taking of the offering buckets inside.

    But - I would probably be inclined to letting a perp. have the money if he was armed. I don't intend to shoot anyone over money. Trip a bucket grabber and maybe break something - yes. But not whip out my concealed carry and off him because of a few bucks.

    The person I am most conceerned with is the guy who comes in with a gun or multiple guns and intends to shoot someone. Perhaps his intent is to jump up on the stage and kill the pastor, open fire on the congregaion until his ammo runs low, then kill himself. You know the kind.

    Not to mention flat out terrorist threats. And let's not forget domestic violence types with intent to harm their wife and her Christian fiends while he's at it.

    Those folks will meet their maker before getting a shot off if I have my way.

  8. #22
    Member Array CJ810's Avatar
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    From what I understand my pastor has a security team. There are also armed police officers all over the place, in uniform, even more so I've noticed around the children's area. My wife and I go by it to get to the young marrieds classes.

    My folks saw the offering being taken to wherever it gets taken care of and it sounded from them like it moves in a cluster of men, including armed and uniformed police.

    I feel quite safe at church.

    I have noticed that the church isn't posted. However, because there is a school there they may not have to be. Seems like someone asked a similar question on the forum about that recently. What's the answer there?

  9. #23
    Member Array RevDerb's Avatar
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    ... whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. (Luke 22:36b NASB)
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin Knox View Post
    And let's not forget domestic violence types with intent to harm their wife and her Christian fiends while he's at it.
    I personally think it would be okay to shoot the Christian 'fiends.'
    Now, who determines who's a fiend and who isn't...that could take some thought.
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  11. #25
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin Knox View Post
    But - I would probably be inclined to letting a perp. have the money if he was armed. I don't intend to shoot anyone over money.
    That's a noble philosophy with just one problem: You won't know exactly what he's after or what he's willing to do to get it until after it's all over with. You see the gun. You see him moving in the direction of the money. How long do you wait until you find out that he actually intended to shoot someone who just happened to be near the till? Or that he intended to shoot without warning and grab the money in the resulting chaos? Or that he's a thrill-killer who, after getting the money, plans on shooting you anyway? Or decides in an instant of foolishness that shooting you will help him get away?

    I think many of us will agree that killing someone to protect the offering is too much. As far as I'm concerned, it's God's money at that point and the thief will have to square things up with Him. The trouble is, you have no guarantee that handing it over will keep everyone safe; nor can you be sure in the preceding moment before the theft that money is his goal.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  12. #26
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  13. #27
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    Bucket snatchers are one thing, but armed perps would be a different story. You want to take the money and run, fine. I'm sure someone, or a few, will be chasing. You pull out a gun and you just really upped the ante. I've made my thoughts known on 3rd party protection before. But I truly feel that in my church, things change. I would be more likely to get involved. Just not sure I could walk out and be OK knowing my lack of involvement meant someone was hurt or killed. That said, I'm checking the congregation to see who is moving or reaching too. We have a lot of cops, but unsure of any real security detail. It was discussed, but I never heard the conclusion.

  14. #28
    Member Array OLDPUPPYMAX's Avatar
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    A majority black city run by the far left for decades and there is a crime problem? Well knock me over with a feather. I assume Mich is a "shall issue" state. CC applications should be FLOODING the state police, just as they are here in Ky. Hussein's only positive accomplishments are huge increases in weapon/ammo sales and CC license applications.

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