Dangerous Gun Salesman?

This is a discussion on Dangerous Gun Salesman? within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I'm certainly FAR from being any sort of expert, but here's my take. Yes, he opened himself and the store up for liability, however, I'm ...

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 29 of 29

Thread: Dangerous Gun Salesman?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    4,268
    I'm certainly FAR from being any sort of expert, but here's my take. Yes, he opened himself and the store up for liability, however, I'm not sure what the issue is if he chooses to carry with the safety disengaged. As long as his brain is engaged I don't care one way or another. Myself, I train with the safety on.

    But lets think about it for a minute. Is the pistol going to go off all by itself? Probably not. It requires the manual manipulation by the operator. I'm sure we all agree on that point. So, that said, what's wrong with him carrying without the safety(assuming he's using a holster of course).

    I know I've read multiple instances where even our long time and well respected members have admitted to FAILING to disengage a 1911 safety even in the comfort of a training session, let alone real life... I KNOW I've personally done so myself. I've failed to disengage the safety before in training and it got me simulatedly dead.

    Apparently this guy did the math and decided it was better for him to leave the safety off... Whether that is good or bad remains to be seen. Until I actually see legitimate evidence to the contrary, I can't fault him on his own method of carry, only on the liability he may have opened up both himself and the store to by dispensing his opinion to customers.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    arizona
    Posts
    3,749
    Maybe he was thinking that the 'young guys' ought to carry in condition 3, no round, therefore no safety engaged?
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,450
    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    I'm certainly FAR from being any sort of expert, but here's my take. Yes, he opened himself and the store up for liability, however, I'm not sure what the issue is if he chooses to carry with the safety disengaged. As long as his brain is engaged I don't care one way or another. Myself, I train with the safety on.

    But lets think about it for a minute. Is the pistol going to go off all by itself? Probably not. It requires the manual manipulation by the operator. I'm sure we all agree on that point. So, that said, what's wrong with him carrying without the safety(assuming he's using a holster of course).

    I know I've read multiple instances where even our long time and well respected members have admitted to FAILING to disengage a 1911 safety even in the comfort of a training session, let alone real life... I KNOW I've personally done so myself. I've failed to disengage the safety before in training and it got me simulatedly dead.

    Apparently this guy did the math and decided it was better for him to leave the safety off... Whether that is good or bad remains to be seen. Until I actually see legitimate evidence to the contrary, I can't fault him on his own method of carry, only on the liability he may have opened up both himself and the store to by dispensing his opinion to customers.
    The only answer I could give to this is 4 1/2 lb trigger pull.

    If one carries a 1911 in condition 1 without the safety on then one deserves the bullet he will eventually get.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    4,268
    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    The only answer I could give to this is 4 1/2 lb trigger pull.

    If one carries a 1911 in condition 1 without the safety on then one deserves the bullet he will eventually get.
    I guess I'm just trying to see the other side of the coin. I carry and train safety on, but can't fault anyone otherwise unless they're carrying "mexican" where they're going to have a high probability of getting clothing or any other myriad of items stuck in the trigger guard.

    Remind me again how even a light 4 1/2lb trigger gets pulled? Oh yeah...the operator. With a quality holster, even if you jump up and down and do somersaults, that 4.5lb trigger isn't going to go boom. The way I see it, it should always boil down to the 4 basic rules and training. Folks tend to perform how they train. If you train poorly(usually violating some form of the "rules") you're going to perform poorly and most likely someone is going to die as a result. That's safety on or not.

    The only thing I can think of other than direct booger hook pressure is MAYBE catching clothing in the trigger guard while reholstering after an incident...or the perfect storm of failures where the sear actually manages to dislodge from the notch due to some unforseen mechanical failure?

    I've noticed a couple of times while carry in the past during periods of high activity that my clothing or body or something has actually managed to push on the thumb safety and snapped it off(open top, IWB holster). Not a regular occurrence but it has happened. Realize though, that this discovery wasn't until at least half a day later(disarming for the night) and I was still standing there...with no boom to speak of... I managed to go all day without a 1911 automagically going boom all by itself.

    I can't help but play the devils advocate every now and then...
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Rustynuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    777
    C&L is the right way, but didn't Browning initially design the 1911 with no thumb safety? I believe the Government MADE him put one on. Not sure which condition he intended it to be carried though without a safety. No round in chamber? Round in, hammer down?

  7. #21
    Member Array Glock30SF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    S. FL
    Posts
    483
    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    I guess I'm just trying to see the other side of the coin. I carry and train safety on, but can't fault anyone otherwise unless they're carrying "mexican" where they're going to have a high probability of getting clothing or any other myriad of items stuck in the trigger guard.

    Remind me again how even a light 4 1/2lb trigger gets pulled? Oh yeah...the operator. With a quality holster, even if you jump up and down and do somersaults, that 4.5lb trigger isn't going to go boom. The way I see it, it should always boil down to the 4 basic rules and training. Folks tend to perform how they train. If you train poorly(usually violating some form of the "rules") you're going to perform poorly and most likely someone is going to die as a result. That's safety on or not.

    The only thing I can think of other than direct booger hook pressure is MAYBE catching clothing in the trigger guard while reholstering after an incident...or the perfect storm of failures where the sear actually manages to dislodge from the notch due to some unforseen mechanical failure?

    I've noticed a couple of times while carry in the past during periods of high activity that my clothing or body or something has actually managed to push on the thumb safety and snapped it off(open top, IWB holster). Not a regular occurrence but it has happened. Realize though, that this discovery wasn't until at least half a day later(disarming for the night) and I was still standing there...with no boom to speak of... I managed to go all day without a 1911 automagically going boom all by itself.

    I can't help but play the devils advocate every now and then...


    +1

    While I think the salesman should keep his opinion to his self, I don't see a big problem with it. Just because you have a safety on doesn't mean YOU are safe from a ND if your brain is not in gear. And to think I have carried a glock for the past 17 years with no manual safety and NO problem of a ND/AD.
    “The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.”.... Albert Einstein

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ!

  8. #22
    New Member Array bugturd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Glock30SF View Post
    +1

    While I think the salesman should keep his opinion to his self, I don't see a big problem with it. Just because you have a safety on doesn't mean YOU are safe from a ND if your brain is not in gear. And to think I have carried a glock for the past 17 years with no manual safety and NO problem of a ND/AD.
    I agree...you can add all the mechanical safeties in the world and never be able to make a firearm idiot-proof (afterall...idiots are why we have instructions on shampoo bottles). The salesman himself isn't my concern. If he were to decide to carry a 1911 in condition 0 and blow a .45-sized hole in his foot/leg/other, then it could serve as a harsh lesson for him and anyone else he manages to tell his tale to. As I've mentioned before, my concern is that he might convince someone new to firearms that carrying a 1911 in Condition 0 is a good thing. As you said, you've carried a Glock for a long time with no NDs/ADs, but the Glock is technically a double-action pistol. While the action is fairly light for a DA, it has enough take-up on the trigger pull (along with the internal safeties) to make it pretty much impossible for the gun to go *BANG* without a finger doing the work. 1911s in Condition 0 are single action. A little pressure on the trigger, and it's going to go *BANG*.
    XDm 9mm
    XDSC 9mm
    Rossi R351 .38 Special
    Maverick 88 12 Guage
    US Air Force 1991 - 1999
    SC Grassroots Member

  9. #23
    Member Array Phoebe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    wild west
    Posts
    93
    I don't know anything about 1911's, and I'm generally new to guns too -- so pardon the stupid question....but...Bugtard is kind of getting to what has me scratching my head.

    The semi-autos that I've handled, mostly have no safeties on them. Glocks, Kahrs, Kel-Tecs, mostly. These guns are typically carried cocked and loaded. The trigger pull on them is a bit more than 4 1/2lbs, but not much. IIRC, some of them have about a 5lb trigger pull.

    So, why is it perceived as safe to carry the above mentioned semi-autos cocked and loaded, with no safety...but dangerous to carry a 1911 cocked and loaded, with the safety off?

    Hope this isn't straying too far from the OP...but this question has actually been bothering me for awhile.

  10. #24
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    State of Discombobulation
    Posts
    5,253
    For posting, as to why one should not carry with the thumb safety disengaged on a 1911, I will leave for more polite and better versed than I.

    I'm going to go beat my bloody head some more against the brick wall.

    Biker

  11. #25
    OD*
    OD* is offline
    Moderator
    Array OD*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Coopersville
    Posts
    11,053
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustynuts View Post
    C&L is the right way, but didn't Browning initially design the 1911 with no thumb safety?
    That is correct. JMB's personal pistol;


    Quote Originally Posted by Rustynuts View Post
    Not sure which condition he intended it to be carried though without a safety. No round in chamber? Round in, hammer down?
    The pistol was designed for the US Government, it was designed to be carried hammer down on an empty chamber per THIER requirements. The US Calvary requested a safety of some sort be incorporated into the weapon system so that our mounted troopers would not have to let go of the reins to place the M1910 (M1911 w/ the safety) into a safe condition, Colt designers came up with the thumb safety. The C&L option was intended to be used only until the trooper was dismounted and could safely place the weapon in Condition 3 carry as called for by the military.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

  12. #26
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    State of Discombobulation
    Posts
    5,253
    When referring to "cocked and locked" that is a term used, if used properly in my opinion, to Single Action Autopistols.

    This is not a term for use with Striker Fired Autopistols, or "crunchentickers", (Double Action Autopistols).

    Biker

  13. #27
    OD*
    OD* is offline
    Moderator
    Array OD*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Coopersville
    Posts
    11,053
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    When referring to "cocked and locked" that is a term used, if used properly in my opinion, to Single Action Autopistols.

    This is not a term for use with Striker Fired Autopistols, or "crunchentickers", (Double Action Autopistols).

    Biker
    Sorry, I guess I'm not following you, what "term" are you referring too?
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

  14. #28
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    State of Discombobulation
    Posts
    5,253
    Quote Originally Posted by OD View Post
    Sorry, I guess I'm not following you, what "term" are you referring too?
    The term "cocked and locked" is reserved IMO, for use with a Single Action Autopistol and not the correct term for describing a Glock carried with a round in the chamber.

    To me, "cocked and locked' describes that the chamber has a round in it, the hammer is cocked and that by lowering the safety the pistol is ready to fire. I have noticed many people in various forums use the term "cocked and locked" to describe carrying a Glock, or other non-Single Action Autopistol, with a round in the chamber.

    Sorry for the confusion.

    Biker

  15. #29
    OD*
    OD* is offline
    Moderator
    Array OD*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Coopersville
    Posts
    11,053
    OK, I gotcha now.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Gun Salesman of the Year
    By SelfDefense in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: January 20th, 2009, 12:45 PM
  2. badger car salesman
    By wendywc in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: March 17th, 2008, 02:39 PM
  3. Amazing gun salesman
    By sevesteen in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: June 9th, 2006, 12:58 AM

Search tags for this page

badger salesman bobblehead

Click on a term to search for related topics.