Water Buffalo Caliber - Page 2

Water Buffalo Caliber

This is a discussion on Water Buffalo Caliber within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; .375H&H on up. If you do your part the .375H&H sure will be up to the task. Lots of suitable great shoulder bustin' boomers out ...

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  1. #16
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    .375H&H on up. If you do your part the .375H&H sure will be up to the task.
    Lots of suitable great shoulder bustin' boomers out there.

    .416 Rem
    .450 Dakota
    .458 Lott
    .470 Nitro


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Hoss,

    Have you run a chrono under your 1895C and 1895SS to compare velocity differences?

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  3. #18
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    Bark'n-we're not major experienced african hunters but have been on 4 safaris so far. Many others have a lot more time over there. I asked my husband on this question and will post later. He's the one with the photographic memory of sectional densities, bullet weights, ft-lbs of energy etc. Never shot a water buffalo-they're bigger than capes but he has shot 3 cape buffalo so far-(1 bull and 2 cows- for baits.)
    "Good decisions come from experience;
    experience comes from bad decisions"

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by surefire7 View Post
    Bark'n-we're not major experienced african hunters but have been on 4 safaris so far. Many others have a lot more time over there. I asked my husband on this question and will post later. He's the one with the photographic memory of sectional densities, bullet weights, ft-lbs of energy etc. Never shot a water buffalo-they're bigger than capes but he has shot 3 cape buffalo so far-(1 bull and 2 cows- for baits.)
    Thank you.

    The last time I was down under I was using a 22-250 on 'roo, so I find myself in need of a little help selecting a larger caliber.

    I will admit, after posting this, and doing some research, that I am leaning towards the .375 due to it's ballistics. Also, the .375 will be good for Elk and Moose. It may be a little "heavy" for Elk, but just about right for Moose I'm thinking.

    After the Australia trip I'll start looking at Moose. I never thought I'd ever get the chance to do a guided hunt, but things change. Now if I can just talk the wife into going to Africa for a plains game safari in a few more years.

    Biker

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Hoss,

    Have you run a chrono under your 1895C and 1895SS to compare velocity differences?

    - Janq
    No, I sure haven't. The 1895SS was my hunting rifle and I did chrono the load I used in it. My handloads with a 300 gr. Sierra HP backed by AA 2015 would make just under 2100 fps kicking out just over 2900 ft.lbs of energy at the muzzle. That was a devastating load on deer but I'm not sure that would be a good bullet choice for what the OP is going for as I never had one exit a deer. They did, however, pretty much liquefy the internals and drop them in their tracks.

    I bought the 1895 Cowboy specifically for Cowboy Action Shooting long range events. Even took 2nd place with it the first year I bought it shooting out to 500 yards.

    Hoss
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  6. #21
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    I use to own, a 1895G 18.5" ported 'Guide Gun' and really love it.
    We moved to a smaller house, and thus a smaller safe or Iíd still own it. Used it hand loaded to propel a 400 gr bullet at 1800 FPS. Shot a wild boar broadside, and it knocked it down so fast, I lost track of it, and thought I missed it.

    But if youíre going to buy a Thompson center fire, you might as well, buy it in 375 H&H.

    Reason is most 45-70 is loaded for older rifles, at lower pressure. Considering your trip down under, will involve travel and flying, you always have to consider the possibility your ammo may get lost or not arrive on time.

    While you may not be able to find 375 H&H at every gun store, youíre a whole lot more likely to find it that you are 45-70 loaded to modern higher pressure standards.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    BikerRN,
    You may also want to take a look at the 338 Win Mag. With a 225 gr. bullet, it's ballistics are a bit better than the 375 with a 270 gr. bullet. With a 200 yd. zero, the 338 drops 7.11 inches at 300 yards while the 375 drops 8.3 inches. The option of lighter weight bullets in the 338 may be a plus when it comes to thinner skinned game like Elk or Moose.

    Hoss
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  8. #23
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    I'd look at a Ruger M77 in .375. Ballistics are better than the .375 H&H magnum (Ruger M77 Hawkeye African Bolt-Action Rifle). Get a muzzle break installed if recoil is a problem. You'll get a great, versatile rifle and you can load up or down, depending on your needs. It will work on this hunt and any hunts you may have in the future for big game, including scratchers and biters in North America.
    Tim
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  9. #24
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    Biker, read up on Vince Lupo (he took the Big Six), and the next person that tells you the old 45/70 Government round isn't an up to date hunting cartridge, you can legitimately tell them they are an idiot.

    http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp
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  10. #25
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    And when someone tells you hunting is cruel, which they inevitably will, show them this video, nature is pretty damn cruel too.

    LiveLeak.com - Cape Buffalo being eaten alive
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Wow Hoss...Very cool.

    Agreed OD.
    Modern .45-70 is (!) available in loadings that are modern firearm specific not suggested nor designed for old timey Trapdoors and such from 100 yrs. ago.
    The modern ammo runs at high pressure and high velocity creating tremendous energy figures at the muzzle and out to as far as 200 yds.

    Again it very much depends on the ammo.
    Old timey gun ammo is out there as well and that stuff is low pressure but it is not the whole of the modern and current story for this chambering.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #27
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    And when someone tells you hunting is cruel, which they inevitably will, show them this video, nature is pretty damn cruel too.
    Off topic but, I'd say the videographer who sat there and filmed that instead of putting a bullet in the Buffalo's head was far crueler than any hunter I've ever met.

  13. #28
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    Choices, choices....

    Biker RN, If you're set on a Ruger #1 as your rifle and haven't bought one yet, I'd suggest the 450/500, 416 Ruger or the 458 Lott as better choices (the #1 comes in all of these). A water buffalo weighs more than a cape buffalo and you sure want penetration into the vitals. If you already own both of these rifles (45/70 and 375 H&H), then I'd choose the 375 H&H simply because it is more powerful (ft./lbs. or momentum). I'd use a minimum of 300 gr. for my bullet and would probably choose a 325 or 350 gr. bullet instead considering the weight of the animal you're hunting. Just my .02 worth....
    "Good decisions come from experience;
    experience comes from bad decisions"

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Grizzly and brown bear are regularly taken with .45-70, which is rated as good for any oxygen breather in the Americas north and south.

    'Why I carry a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70'

    Here is a picture of another hunter that took this Coastal Brown up in Alaska using a 45-70's


    Here is another one, that was taken at 20 yards


    Here is the story of this picture below about using Garrett Ammunition


    "Mr. Garrett, I am a Master Guide in Alaska and a Licensed Professional Hunter in Africa. I have made a full time living as guide since 1975 and have over the years tested the bullets from every major bullet maker and from most of the custom bullet makers. I chose to use your 45-70 ammo because it is by far the best. I do not believe that any better load exists to go into thick brush after a wounded Grizzly.
    When my 8 year old son (Jason) decided that he wanted to hunt Grizzly with me on the Alaska Peninsula I was pleased as he had decided this on his own with no prompting from me. (I do not believe in pushing kids into doing what the parents do) This became a goal that the two of us shared together as a father and son team. Over 9 months we prepared for his hunt. Lots of target practice for him with a 22. We spent last winter cross country skiing and practicing shooting from a variety of real life field conditions.

    I had unlimited choices of rifles and calibers that my son could use. I have custom rifles in medium and big bore up to 470 Nitro. We also have friends with custom rifles made for kids that wanted to loan some very fine rifles to Jason. We decided on Jason using a factory rifle, the Marlin Guide Rifle in 45-70. The only modifications that were made was installation of peep sights, 2" cut off the stock and a decelerator pad installed. Dry fire practice and getting into kneeling and prone positions was the first thing Jason worked on with the 45-70. After he was proficient at that I let him fire a few factory 405 gr. loads from a kneeling position. I needed to see if he could handled the recoil. Jason did okay but it was too much for him to practice with. After that I only let him used the rifle with a 45 ACP adapter made by MCA Sports. This adapter let him shoot 45 pistol ammo and practice a lot so he did not develop a flinch. We never used a bullseye target for his practice. We used a paper archery target of a life sized grizzly standing broad side. No aiming point to see so he had to learn to target on the shoulder himself.

    The end result is that 9 year old Jason shot a beautiful 8' 7" Grizzly with your 45-70 ammo. From 45 yards the 540 gr. bullet struck the bear broadside in the left shoulder. Breaking the shoulder, going through the rib cage on both sides and breaking the right shoulder, then exiting the bear. This was a devastating blow to a tough animal. The bear made one jump when hit then collapsed dead 18 feet from where he was standing.
    Thank you for making the excellent ammo that helped make my son's hunt a success. "
    Jerry Jacques
    Source - Why I carry a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 - Ruger Forum
    Grizzly size and weight varies greatly according to geographic location. Inland bears, particularly those of the Yukon region, may weigh as little as 300 lbs (136 kg) for adult males. The largest populations are found in coastal areas where weights are typically 500-750 lbs (225–420 kg). Populations found in Katmai National Park and the Alaskan Peninsula may approach or just exceed 1000 lbs (450 kg), indeed some specimens rival the Kodiak bear in size and weight. The females are on average 38% smaller,[2] at about 250–450 pounds (114–160 kg),[3] an example of sexual dimorphism. On average, grizzly bears stand about 1 meter (3.3 ft) at the shoulder when on all fours and 2 meters (6.6 ft) on their hind legs,[4] but males often stand 2.44 meters (8 ft) or more on their hind legs. On average, grizzly bears from the Yukon River area are about 20% smaller than typical grizzlies.
    Source - Grizzly Bear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The brown bear (Ursus arctos) is a large bear distributed across much of northern Eurasia and North America. It weighs 100 to 680 kilograms (220 to 1,500 lb) and its largest subspecies, the Kodiak Bear, rivals the polar bear as the largest member of the bear family,[2] and as the largest land based predator.[3]

    Source - Brown Bear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Adult Water Buffalo range in size from 400 to 900 kg (880 to 2,000 lb) for the domestic Water Buffalo.[5] In the wild, Water Buffalo can weigh up to 1,200 kg (2,600 lb), while females are about two-thirds this size.[5] They can stand as tall as 2 m (6.6 ft), and stretch up to 3 m (9.8 ft) in body length.[5] The largest recorded horns are just under 2 metres long.[5]

    However, the wild buffalo subspecies found in the Assam state of Northern India, where they inhabit monsoon forests along the foothills of the Himalaya, are notably larger. Here, the average weight of a male adult buffalo is 900 kg, a bit larger than the female. The average height at the shoulder for a male is about 1.7m, and may reach even 2 metres. These wild buffalo, which are of the purest breed in India, are now mostly found in the forests of Kaziranga and Manas national parks, both of which are UNESCO world heritage sites. They have also been known to spread into the northwestern region of the neighboring country, Myanmar.

    Source - Wild water buffalo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The African Buffalo, Affalo or Cape Buffalo (Syncerus caffer) is a large African bovid. It is up to 1.7 meters high, 3.4 meters long. Savannah type buffaloes weigh 500-900 kg, with only males, normally larger than females, reaching the upper weight range. Forest type buffaloes are only half that size.[2]The African Buffalo is not closely related to the slightly larger Wild Asian Water Buffalo, but its ancestry remains unclear. Owing to its unpredictable nature which makes it highly dangerous to humans, it has not been domesticated, unlike its Asian counterpart, the Domestic Asian Water Buffalo.

    Source - African Buffalo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    As .45-70 is very well documented for generation taking NA grizzly and brown bear, dealing with a water buffalo or cape buffalo should be no problem considering overall size, weight, and musculature.

    I wouldn't be walking up within 50 yds. or less of either animal though.
    Not without Captn. Kirk as backup with phaser set to something greater than stun.

    As well I personally would not engage any of these animals with a single shot rifle of any caliber, such as a Ruger Model 1.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #30
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    I see no reason that the .45-70 couldnt be used.

    If it were me though, I'd load it to the max for that gun and use hard cast bullets. You want a bullet that penetrates, and a hard cast will do it better than most.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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