handgun gift to CA - Page 2

handgun gift to CA

This is a discussion on handgun gift to CA within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Rivers OK, I had to wait until today to speak with a very competent FFL about this. If the son goes to ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
    OK, I had to wait until today to speak with a very competent FFL about this. If the son goes to AZ and takes face-to-face possession of the handgun, as in a INTRAFAMILIAL gift, he can LEGALLY drive it back to CA with NO federal laws at issue. No waiting period or FFL involvement in either state. (The son will need to conform to each state's transportation standards regarding locked boxes, etc.)

    The recipient does need to complete a CA DoJ form within (I think) 30 days to register the handgun in his name in CA.

    IF the handgun is shipped, it must be shipped to an FFL in CA and the waiting would apply. But the OP had said that the son could take face-to-face delivery in AZ and that was the basis of my response.
    Interesting...
    Thanks for checking with your sources!
    Would my son need some way to PROVE the Glock came from me?
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    I'd rather trust a call to the ATF over what an FFL says. FFLs are like cops, most have a good idea of what the law is but not what ALL laws are.

    BillR, give your nearest ATF satellite office a call and explain what you want to do. Then you will have the answer that will keep everyone happy.

    I just went through the gifting thing and that's what I found to be the best source of info.

  3. #18
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Since the only real debate is regarding federal, I agree. Call the feds, your local ATFE office. Please post what you find out. If they can actually quote you the code/law (if any applies), that would be awesome.

  4. #19
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
    OK, I had to wait until today to speak with a very competent FFL about this. If the son goes to AZ and takes face-to-face possession of the handgun, as in a INTRAFAMILIAL gift, he can LEGALLY drive it back to CA with NO federal laws at issue. No waiting period or FFL involvement in either state. (The son will need to conform to each state's transportation standards regarding locked boxes, etc.)

    The recipient does need to complete a CA DoJ form within (I think) 30 days to register the handgun in his name in CA.

    IF the handgun is shipped, it must be shipped to an FFL in CA and the waiting would apply. But the OP had said that the son could take face-to-face delivery in AZ and that was the basis of my response.
    Your "competent" FFL is advising you to commit TWO seperate FELONIES!

    The physical location of the two parties involved in a firearms transaction has absolutely NOTHING to do with the legality of that transaction when the parties involve are RESIDENTS of different states. It is the state of RESIDENCY that matters in Federal law, not the physical location of the parties at the time of transfer.

    First, the military member receiving the firearm is a resident of CALIFORNIA! State of residency for military members regarding firearms is defined in 18 USC 921(b):
    US CODE: Title 18,921. Definitions

    (b) For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located.
    When the father transfers the gun to the son, without going through an FFL, the father then violates 18 USC 922 (a)(5) and commits a FEDERAL FELONY!

    US CODE: Title 18,922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
    When the son takes that firearm and goes back to California with that firearm, the son violates 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and commits a separate FEDERAL FELONY!

    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
    Now that you see the Federal law on the subject, just how competent do you think that FFL is?

    THE ONLY WAY TO LEGALLY TRANSFER THE HANDGUN IS TO DELIVER IT TO A CALIFORNIA FFL FOR THE TRANSFER!

    Any mention of Father-Son, Intrafamily transfer, contiguous state, blah, blah, blah does not exclude this transfer from the Federal law requirements above.

    BTW, 18 USC 922(b)(3) prohibits an Arizona FFL from transferring the handgun directly to the California resident.

    Tubby45 <- he is a COMPETENT FFL :-)

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
    OK, I had to wait until today to speak with a very competent FFL about this. If the son goes to AZ and takes face-to-face possession of the handgun, as in a INTRAFAMILIAL gift, he can LEGALLY drive it back to CA with NO federal laws at issue. No waiting period or FFL involvement in either state. (The son will need to conform to each state's transportation standards regarding locked boxes, etc.)

    The recipient does need to complete a CA DoJ form within (I think) 30 days to register the handgun in his name in CA.

    IF the handgun is shipped, it must be shipped to an FFL in CA and the waiting would apply. But the OP had said that the son could take face-to-face delivery in AZ and that was the basis of my response.
    Sorry, your FFL is incompetent. I'd like to know who this FFL is. As above, both father and son would be committing a federal felony in that scenario.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    I have not found FFL holders/dealers to be especially knowledgeable in firearms laws.
    He is incorrect, and the ATF requires that transfers between two people residents of different states must be done by a FFL in the state of residence of the one receiving the gun.

    As for the ATF if one is given a gun in a will or inherits it intestate he does not have to go through a FFL, but that is not the case here. In addition CA law does evidently require it.
    What a mess all this is, but we have to live with it for now.

    Edited to post regs.
    § 178.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.
    No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
    licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in
    the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business
    entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or
    otherwise obtained by such person outside that State: Provided, That the
    provisions of this section:
    (a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by
    bequest or intestate succession i
    n a State other than his State of
    residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that
    State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm
    in that State,


    Regards,
    Jerry

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    I have not found FFL holders/dealers to be especially knowledgeable in firearms laws.
    He is incorrect, and the ATF requires that transfers between two people residents of different states must be done by a FFL in the state of residence of the one receiving the gun.

    As for the ATF if one is given a gun in a will or inherits it intestate he does not have to go through a FFL, but that is not the case here. In addition CA law does evidently require it.
    What a mess all this is, but we have to live with it for now.

    Edited to post regs.
    § 178.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.
    No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
    licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in
    the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business
    entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or
    otherwise obtained by such person outside that State: Provided, That the
    provisions of this section:
    (a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by
    bequest or intestate succession i
    n a State other than his State of
    residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that
    State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm
    in that State,


    Regards,
    Jerry
    Hmm, I haven't tried to look this one up but in order to buy a handgun in California now, you either HAVE to have gone through a California approved handgun safety course and hold a certificate OR have a CCW. (not sure if out of state CCW will work either) I wonder what happens in this case, going through an FFL to California. Man, I would say just do a face to face in the state you're in during one of his visits, THEN have him come back to Ca. already "owning" the pistol. Geeze, what a nightmare Ca. is!
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    I wonder what happens in this case, going through an FFL to California.
    Pretty simple. Ship handgun to CA FFL. Son goes to CA FFL and does the 4473/DROS, etc in person at the CA FFL, 10 day (10 24hr period) wait, and they pick up the gun.

    Man, I would say just do a face to face in the state you're in during one of his visits, THEN have him come back to Ca. already "owning" the pistol.
    No, you don't get it. That would be an interstate handgun transfer between residents of different states without going through an FFL in the transferee's (receiver's) state. That's a federal violation, not a California violation. State law is not the issue here, it's a federal issue.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  9. #24
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    No, you don't get it. That would be an interstate handgun transfer between residents of different states without going through an FFL in the transferee's (receiver's) state. That's a federal violation, not a California violation. State law is not the issue here, it's a federal issue.
    He does get it, Tubby45. Some people just don't care about committing felonies if the laws do not fall into line with what they believe should be.

  10. #25
    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    I left a message with the local ATF office, but they must be gone for the holidays.
    Another question along the same lines....
    My son also owns other guns. (shottys, .22 rifle) Is he allowed to take THEM back to CA with him without me having to send them to an FFL, or is it just a handgun issue?
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Pretty simple. Ship handgun to CA FFL. Son goes to CA FFL and does the 4473/DROS, etc in person at the CA FFL, 10 day (10 24hr period) wait, and they pick up the gun.


    No, you don't get it. That would be an interstate handgun transfer between residents of different states without going through an FFL in the transferee's (receiver's) state. That's a federal violation, not a California violation. State law is not the issue here, it's a federal issue.

    What I was getting at here is you have to have either a CCW or a Handgun Safety Certificate. Either of which are a California requirement BEFORE you can buy a handgun in the State of California, new or used. And beings that the authorities are basically the ones that hold that firearm for 10 days and have control of it while the DROS goes through, are they going to release that handgun to him having no California CCW or Handgun Safety Certificate? That's what I was getting at in my post but since then, I have called my reputable FFL here in Ca., and I asked him the OP's question. He informed me that not only is his son, (receiving a gifted handgun from a parent) going to have to go through the DROS and wait the 10 days, but it will also have to be a handgun on the "California Approved" list and he asked me what it was. I told him it was a Glock with a 10 round magazine but I didn't know what model it was. He said that almost all Glocks are California approved. He also informed me that he will also be required to hold either a Handgun Safety Certificate OR a CCW in order to pick up his gun. This goes for new, used or gifted handguns, no matter how the transfer, in California. He also mentioned that if anyone already legally "owns" a handgun and then comes to Ca., no California paperwork needs to be done. But if any handgun is shipped and then wished to be transfered into another name, all that will be required. He then added that "it would be easier to just already have it in his name." If that's not possible, he is going to have to take a class before he can pick it up.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

    Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.

  12. #27
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    What I was getting at here is you have to have either a CCW or a Handgun Safety Certificate. Either of which are a California requirement BEFORE you can buy a handgun in the State of California, new or used. And beings that the authorities are basically the ones that hold that firearm for 10 days and have control of it while the DROS goes through, are they going to release that handgun to him having no California CCW or Handgun Safety Certificate? That's what I was getting at in my post but since then, I have called my reputable FFL here in Ca., and I asked him the OP's question. He informed me that not only is his son, (receiving a gifted handgun from a parent) going to have to go through the DROS and wait the 10 days, but it will also have to be a handgun on the "California Approved" list and he asked me what it was. I told him it was a Glock with a 10 round magazine but I didn't know what model it was. He said that almost all Glocks are California approved. He also informed me that he will also be required to hold either a Handgun Safety Certificate OR a CCW in order to pick up his gun. This goes for new, used or gifted handguns, no matter how the transfer, in California. He also mentioned that if anyone already legally "owns" a handgun and then comes to Ca., no California paperwork needs to be done. But if any handgun is shipped and then wished to be transfered into another name, all that will be required. He then added that "it would be easier to just already have it in his name." If that's not possible, he is going to have to take a class before he can pick it up.
    More incorrect info from an FFL. Go figure. The gun does NOT have to be on the handgun safe list.

    http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

    Page 35

    The requirements for handguns to pass safety and functionality tests and to be listed in the Department of Justice’s official list of handguns certified as safe for sale in California do not apply to transactions involving the following:
    • Private party transfers of handguns occurring through a firearms dealer. (Penal Code § 12132(a).)
    Tubby45, what is your take?

    Also just noticed the part about bringing a previously owned handgun into California. California paperwork certainly must be completed, because the person bringing the handgun into California, if becoming a CA resident, must register the handgun with the CA DOJ using their registration form.

  13. #28
    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    He also mentioned that if anyone already legally "owns" a handgun and then comes to Ca., no California paperwork needs to be done. But if any handgun is shipped and then wished to be transfered into another name, all that will be required. He then added that "it would be easier to just already have it in his name." If that's not possible, he is going to have to take a class before he can pick it up.
    That's the confusing part...
    Here in AZ, it's not against the law for someone 18 years old to possess a handgun. He couldn't buy it from a dealer, and he can't purchase ammo for it, and he can't get a CCW. But AFAIK, he's allowed to "own' it if it was a gift. (obviously, no paperwork involved)
    What does it mean to have it "in his name"? An FFL transfer? Private party transactions here don't require an FFL.
    Again, if he already owns guns, do they need to be actually transfered to him via an FFL for him to possess them in CA?
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  14. #29
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillR View Post
    That's the confusing part...
    Here in AZ, it's not against the law for someone 18 years old to possess a handgun. He couldn't buy it from a dealer, and he can't purchase ammo for it, and he can't get a CCW. But AFAIK, he's allowed to "own' it if it was a gift. (obviously, no paperwork involved)
    What does it mean to have it "in his name"? An FFL transfer? Private party transactions here don't require an FFL.
    Again, if he already owns guns, do they need to be actually transfered to him via an FFL for him to possess them in CA?
    No. If he already owns guns, he can take those guns into California. Firearms classified as assault weapons by California would be illegal to possess, as well as magazines over 10 rounds capacity. If he brought handguns he already owned into California, then he would have to register those handguns with California DOJ using their registration form and pay their fees.

    IF YOUR SON WAS AN AZ RESIDENT, all you would have to do is give him the gun in AZ. But he is not a AZ resident. To legally give him the gun to own, it has to go through an FFL in his own state, California.

    Now, if your son is under 21 years old and a resident of a different state, well, heck, that settles everything, you CAN'T give him a handgun because he can't receive it from an FFL anyway.

    18 to 20 year old persons can also acquire handguns in private party sales in most states from same state residetns because in most states private party sales do not have to go through FFLs.

    Now, if you want to circumvent the law and perform illegal actions, just give him the gun in AZ, let him take it back to California and let him register it as if he already owned the gun.

  15. #30
    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    No. If he already owns guns, he can take those guns into California. Firearms classified as assault weapons by California would be illegal to possess, as well as magazines over 10 rounds capacity. If he brought handguns he already owned into California, then he would have to register those handguns with California DOJ using their registration form and pay their fees.

    IF YOUR SON WAS AN AZ RESIDENT, all you would have to do is give him the gun in AZ. But he is not a AZ resident. To legally give him the gun to own, it has to go through an FFL in his own state, California.

    Now, if your son is under 21 years old and a resident of a different state, well, heck, that settles everything, you CAN'T give him a handgun because he can't receive it from an FFL anyway.

    18 to 20 year old persons can also acquire handguns in private party sales in most states from same state residetns because in most states private party sales do not have to go through FFLs.

    Now, if you want to circumvent the law and perform illegal actions, just give him the gun in AZ, let him take it back to California and let him register it as if he already owned the gun.
    OK, so the fact that it's a handgun doesn't really make a difference for a 21 year-old, correct?
    He also has a little J-frame that my dad gave him. He could take that one back to CA and simply fill out the DOJ paperwork? Where is this paperwork available and where would he pay the fees?
    Thanks for your help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dal1Celt View Post
    You can't cure stupid, but you can give it a good whoopin to straighten it's thought pattern.

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