handgun gift to CA - Page 3

handgun gift to CA

This is a discussion on handgun gift to CA within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by BillR OK, so the fact that it's a handgun doesn't really make a difference for a 21 year-old, correct? He also has ...

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Thread: handgun gift to CA

  1. #31
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillR View Post
    OK, so the fact that it's a handgun doesn't really make a difference for a 21 year-old, correct?
    He also has a little J-frame that my dad gave him. He could take that one back to CA and simply fill out the DOJ paperwork? Where is this paperwork available and where would he pay the fees?
    Thanks for your help.
    Here's the form:
    http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf

    The instructions are included.

    The only difference between the handgun and a rifle is the handgun requires the form.

    Maybe his next duty station won't be in California and he can experience firearms freedom!


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    He does get it, Tubby45. Some people just don't care about committing felonies if the laws do not fall into line with what they believe should be.
    Sorry OP, I will have to admit I was partially at fault here and it didn't really click until I re-read your original post about your son already establishing residency in California. In no way was I suggesting to violate any federal law by giving an out-of-state resident a firearm to bring back to Ca.. A "VISIT" to your place was just in my mind as not having residency already established. When I said already "owning" I meant LEGALLY, be it federal or state. I apologize for my answering while not having the whole picture correct. If one ALREADY LEGALLY OWNS a firearm there is no "transfer." The person simply just moves to another state and no paperwork is need and everything is great. An exception would be if the firearm in question is legal to own in the state that it's moving to. (probably not the case here though) I was just focusing on the question about the legality of receiving a handgun in California.

    The bottom line here is in order for the firearm to be picked up in Ca., my above post stands. Take it or leave it. Tubby 45, you are correct on all but 2 issues here.

    1) "Pretty simple. Ship handgun to CA FFL. Son goes to CA FFL and does the 4473/DROS, etc in person at the CA FFL, 10 day (10 24hr period) wait, and they pick up the gun."

    That is correct except for you're missing the part that it will have to be a Ca. approved handgun AND the son of the OP will also have to take a class, be it CCW or California Handgun Safety. It's not quite as simple as "just pick it up" at the end of the 10 day. And 2) You say that it's not a state issue, it's a federal issue. Well, if he wants to actually pick it up and own it, he's going to have to follow state laws as well or he's not going to own it. In this case, he's going to have to take a class since he doesn't already own it legally. And I do stand corrected and at the time "didn't get it" about the residency thing. My Bad. But Navy LT should have known what I really meant, beings he has so much insight as to what I believe and what I think things should be. Instead of having the OP ship the pistol legally according to federal law and leaving his son high and dry, not being able to pick it up, maybe The Expert should have included the little "picking it up legally in California" thing once it gets here.

    Tubby 45, I admitted that I was not correct, due to the residency deal. But now here, it's you who didn't get it. If you read the rest of the post here a couple more times, you will see what I was "wondering."....

    " Hmm, I haven't tried to look this one up but in order to buy a handgun in California now, you either HAVE to have gone through a California approved handgun safety course and hold a certificate OR have a CCW. (not sure if out of state CCW will work either) I wonder what happens in this case, going through an FFL to California."

    Well, I was right. The recipient of a handgun legally in California as a result of a transfer is no different than purchasing a new or used handgun from a legitimate dealer. He must take a class if he hasn't already. State law IS an issue here, it's just not one that you guys are discussing. You are talking only about federal law and I'm sure you are correct.
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  3. #33
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    The person simply just moves to another state and no paperwork is need and everything is great.

    That is correct except for you're missing the part that it will have to be a Ca. approved handgun
    If he is bringing handguns into California that he already owns there IS paperwork required.

    If he is accepting transfer of a handgun from a private party via a California FFL, that handgun does NOT have to be on the California safe handgun list.

    Both of these requirements, with the appropriate references have been provided above in earlier posts.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Ok, I just got off of the phone with the Ca. Dept. of Justice. I mentioned your situation and the guy told me that because your son is in the military, he is on the exempt list for needing a CCW or Handgun Safety Certificate. Unless someone falls within that list, it is just like purchasing a new or used handgun in California. And because only of the fact of being a father / son transfer, it doesn't need to be on the "Ca. Approved" list. Well, it probably is anyway but...

    Navy LT has posted a good website for the forms but tell your son if he happens into the DMV, he may be able to pick up "New Residency" forms that would include what he needs from there as well for the transfer of firearms.

    Personally, if I were you, I would call this number and include any other questions you may have on the Ca. State level and direct them to here.... 916-263-4887. Certain regulations may apply, depending on what color hair he has, what type of car he drives, does he wear boxers or briefs, and they may even need his firstborn. Like I've said before, California is pretty straight forward and simple.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

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  5. #35
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    YEAH! Somebody called the proper source, rather than talking to "competent" and "reputable" FFLs!

    Good job mprp, thanks!

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillR View Post
    My son also owns other guns. (shottys, .22 rifle) Is he allowed to take THEM back to CA with him without me having to send them to an FFL, or is it just a handgun issue?
    If he owns them, he can take them.

    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    What I was getting at here is you have to have either a CCW or a Handgun Safety Certificate. Either of which are a California requirement BEFORE you can buy a handgun in the State of California, new or used. And beings that the authorities are basically the ones that hold that firearm for 10 days and have control of it while the DROS goes through, are they going to release that handgun to him having no California CCW or Handgun Safety Certificate? That's what I was getting at in my post but since then, I have called my reputable FFL here in Ca., and I asked him the OP's question. He informed me that not only is his son, (receiving a gifted handgun from a parent) going to have to go through the DROS and wait the 10 days, but it will also have to be a handgun on the "California Approved" list and he asked me what it was. I told him it was a Glock with a 10 round magazine but I didn't know what model it was. He said that almost all Glocks are California approved. He also informed me that he will also be required to hold either a Handgun Safety Certificate OR a CCW in order to pick up his gun. This goes for new, used or gifted handguns, no matter how the transfer, in California. He also mentioned that if anyone already legally "owns" a handgun and then comes to Ca., no California paperwork needs to be done. But if any handgun is shipped and then wished to be transfered into another name, all that will be required. He then added that "it would be easier to just already have it in his name." If that's not possible, he is going to have to take a class before he can pick it up.
    Active military is exempt from the HSC.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    More incorrect info from an FFL. Go figure. The gun does NOT have to be on the handgun safe list.

    http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

    Page 35



    Tubby45, what is your take?
    Correct. It's an out of state intrafamily gift, exempt from the roster.

    However, it is not a PPT (private party transfer) because a PPT by definition is a transfer between two private individuals both of whom are California residents. PPTs are exempt from the roster as are intrafamily gifts and new residents moving to CA with pistols not on the roster.

    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    Tubby 45, you are correct on all but 2 issues here.

    1)
    That is correct except for you're missing the part that it will have to be a Ca. approved handgun AND the son of the OP will also have to take a class, be it CCW or California Handgun Safety. It's not quite as simple as "just pick it up" at the end of the 10 day.
    Active military personnel are exempt from the HSC. Furthermore it is not subject to the roster because it's an interfamily gift. I am correct.

    And 2) You say that it's not a state issue, it's a federal issue. Well, if he wants to actually pick it up and own it, he's going to have to follow state laws as well or he's not going to own it.
    The interstate transfer issue is a federal issue like I stated. We are talking about the gifting of a firearm from one resident to another. That's a federal issue, not a state issue. I was correct.

    I was correct in both cases you said I was incorrect.

    In this case, he's going to have to take a class since he doesn't already own it legally.
    You are incorrect yet again. Active military is exempt from the HSC. He does not need to take the class.

    Well, I was right. The recipient of a handgun legally in California as a result of a transfer is no different than purchasing a new or used handgun from a legitimate dealer. He must take a class if he hasn't already. State law IS an issue here, it's just not one that you guys are discussing. You are talking only about federal law and I'm sure you are correct.
    No, you are wrong. He does not have to take the class.
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  7. #37
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    Ok, I just got off of the phone with the Ca. Dept. of Justice. I mentioned your situation and the guy told me that because your son is in the military, he is on the exempt list for needing a CCW or Handgun Safety Certificate.
    Like I said before.
    And because only of the fact of being a father / son transfer, it doesn't need to be on the "Ca. Approved" list.
    Like I said before.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  8. #38
    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    I just spoke with the local ATF office. The agent I spoke with said there would be no FEDERAL issue with my son coming here and taking possession of the handgun from me, then taking it to CA. He was not sure of the CA state regulations, but he said there would not be a requirement to go through an FFL out there.

    From what I'm gathering from reading this thread, it sounds like he's also exempt from most of the state registration regulations due to being active-duty military. Is this correct?
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  9. #39
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillR View Post
    I just spoke with the local ATF office. The agent I spoke with said there would be no FEDERAL issue with my son coming here and taking possession of the handgun from me, then taking it to CA. He was not sure of the CA state regulations, but he said there would not be a requirement to go through an FFL out there.
    That is 100% contrary to federal law.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  10. #40
    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    That is 100% contrary to federal law.
    I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing his statement was along the lines of not really being able to document when my son was actually given the gun by me. If I had "given it to him" before he joined the service, there'd be no issue anyway.
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  11. #41
    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    Here's another "hypothetical" situation...
    Let's say an out-of-state relative passes away, and you're given some firearms by a remaining family member. Would those firearms need to be transfered through an FFL to return back to your home state? I may be wrong, but I can't see the ATF even WANTING to be involved in this situation. It's a family transfer, not a sale.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillR View Post
    Here's another "hypothetical" situation...
    Let's say an out-of-state relative passes away, and you're given some firearms by a remaining family member. Would those firearms need to be transfered through an FFL to return back to your home state? I may be wrong, but I can't see the ATF even WANTING to be involved in this situation. It's a family transfer, not a sale.
    Please read the Federal Statutes posted in post #19. They will show you where the advice given to you by the ATF agent was incorrect and will also show you that transfers due to "intestate succession" or by "bequest" in a will when someone dies are exempt from the Federal requirements. The statutes posted in post #19 are the exact Federal laws and are not that hard to understand. If you can't understand them, I would suggest that you consult an attorney to explain them to you.

    There really is nothing more to be done on this. We have shown you exactly what the Federal law says, and it seems as if you are bound and determined to get enough people to tell you it is OK to just give your son the gun regardless of what the actual Federal statute says.

    It's entirely up to you whether or not you want to violate the Federal statutes in order to transfer the handgun easily to your son. To be honest, the likelihood of you getting caught and prosecuted is probably 0.000001%. But without sending the gun to a California FFL for transfer to your California resident son, you are violating Federal law and committing felonies, unless you die and your son inherits the gun, with or without a will.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Please read the Federal Statutes posted in post #19. They will show you where the advice given to you by the ATF agent was incorrect and will also show you that transfers due to "intestate succession" or by "bequest" in a will when someone dies are exempt from the Federal requirements.
    I read those laws (again) and they don't say anything about firearms he already owns, documented or otherwise.
    There also seems to be several interpretations of those laws, which is the reason I followed the advice given and contacted the ATF myself. Their "interpretation" is the one that counts. While it may not be legally "correct", it appears to be the one that's enforced.
    Thanks for your help.
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  14. #44
    Ex Member Array NavyLT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillR View Post
    I read those laws (again) and they don't say anything about firearms he already owns, documented or otherwise.
    There also seems to be several interpretations of those laws, which is the reason I followed the advice given and contacted the ATF myself. Their "interpretation" is the one that counts. While it may not be legally "correct", it appears to be the one that's enforced.
    Thanks for your help.
    Too bad you weren't talking about firearms that he already owns, though...

    My son is in the Navy stationed in San Diego. He turns 21 in August and I'd like to get him a new Glock.

    He really wants MY G20. (with the .40 barrel, TFOs, etc.) He shoots it really well.

    My son also owns other guns. (shottys, .22 rifle) Is he allowed to take THEM back to CA with him without me having to send them to an FFL, or is it just a handgun issue?

    I just spoke with the local ATF office. The agent I spoke with said there would be no FEDERAL issue with my son coming here and taking possession of the handgun from me, then taking it to CA.

    All of the above are your statements, Bill. So it appears as if this Glock has now mysteriously become "his" gun. Just please don't forget that we are talking about California, which registers handguns, which increases the chances of getting caught. Also, please don't forget that your son is in the Navy and we aren't just talking about little violations of the law here - if something comes out of this we are talking about an incident that may affect a military career as well.

  15. #45
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    Again, the ATF indicated that a family transfer, whatever "date" it took place, was NOT an issue.
    A law or regulation doesn't have much value if it's not enforceable. This sounds precisely like one of those "laws'. The ONLY way that this regulation would be enforceable is if there were documentation required for ALL firearms transfers including inter-family. Otherwise, there's no way to prove conclusively when the "transfer" actually took place. On a new handgun purchase from a dealer, there IS such documentation. No such documentation exists on most private party transactions, and certainly none on a family transfer.
    Any guns I "gave" him before he became a CA resident are completely legal for him to transport to CA. He will only be transporting firearms he already "owns", to avoid any remote chance of complications.
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