Now I know I am buying a Trijicon sight!!!

This is a discussion on Now I know I am buying a Trijicon sight!!! within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; If the military contract explicitly states that no references to religious texts are allowed on the optics, then the contract has been violated and Trijicon ...

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Thread: Now I know I am buying a Trijicon sight!!!

  1. #31
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    If the military contract explicitly states that no references to religious texts are allowed on the optics, then the contract has been violated and Trijicon will be subject to a finding in civil court. If it doesn't, then the government will have to add that to the next contract, as there is nothing they can do under the current one but ask the company nicely not to do it.

    The Islamic terrorists will hate us no matter what we do, even if we convert and follow sharia law. They want us dead. This issue is so trivial it matters not in the war on terror.

    And last but certainly not least, the First Amendment protects the freedom to worship, and prohibits the establishment of a national religion, not the freedom from being exposed to any religious references that might offend you. As a matter of fact, the First Amendment's freedom of speech is there to protect your right to offend others. And by extension, the right of others to offend you.

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  3. #32
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    Exclamation Bible Codes Found on US Military Rifles

    Link :U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes - ABC News

    Coded references to New testament Bible passages about Jesus Christ are inscribed on high-powered rifle sights provided to the U.S. military by a Michigan company, an ABC News investigation has found.
    Brian Ross looks at the biblical verses written on firearms.



    The sights are used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers. The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $660 million multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the U.S. Army.

    U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.

    One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6, is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New testament, which reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

    Other references include citations from the books of Revelation, Matthew and John dealing with Jesus as "the light of the world." John 8:12, referred to on the gun sights as JN8:12, reads, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

    Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions "have always been there" and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them. Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian." The company has said the practice began under its founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africa who was killed in a 2003 plane crash.

    'It violates the Constitution'
    The company's vision is described on its Web site: "Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom."

    "We believe that America is great when its people are good," says the Web site. "This goodness has been based on Biblical standards throughout our history, and we will strive to follow those morals."

    Spokespeople for the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps both said their services were unaware of the biblical markings. They said officials were discussing what steps, if any, to take in the wake of the ABCNews.com report. It is not known how many Trijicon sights are currently in use by the U.S. military.

    The biblical references appear in the same type font and size as the model numbers on the company's Advanced Combat Optical Guides, called the ACOG.

    A photo on a Department of Defense Web site shows Iraqi soldiers being trained by U.S. troops with a rifle equipped with the bible-coded sights.

    "It's wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws," said Michael "Mikey" Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.
    'Firearms of Jesus Christ'
    "It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles," he said.

    Weinstein, an attorney and former Air Force officer, said many members of his group who currently serve in the military have complained about the markings on the sights. He also claims they've told him that commanders have referred to weapons with the sights as "spiritually transformed firearm[s] of Jesus Christ."
    He said coded biblical inscriptions play into the hands of "those who are calling this a Crusade."

    According to a government contracting watchdog group, fedspending.org, Trijicon had more than $100 million in government contracts in fiscal year 2008. The Michigan company won a $33 million Pentagon contract in July, 2009 for a new machine gun optic, according to Defense Industry Daily. The company's earnings from the U.S. military jumped significantly after 2005, when it won a $660 million long-term contract to supply the Marine Corps with sights.

    "This is probably the best example of violation of the separation of church and state in this country," said Weinstein. "It's literally pushing fundamentalist Christianity at the point of a gun against the people that we're fighting. We're emboldening an enemy."


  4. #33
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    Trijicon shouldn't have to change a thing. I hope they stick to their guns and tell the gov't to get over it or buy somewhere else.

    I hadn't read the report ABC did and I have to say I'm disgusted. The idiots who spoke and said this was wrong and think Trijicon should be penalized are morons.

    Be sure to shoot Trijicon an e-mail showing your support. I too like many of the others here will show my additional support in buying one of their scopes. If other countries can accept our "In God We Trust" dollars then they can accept the principles that that money was founded on.

    Our men and women have enough to worry about. God Bless Our Country and our Troops!

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kahr View Post
    Trijicon shouldn't have to change a thing. I hope they stick to their guns and tell the gov't to get over it or buy somewhere else.
    I don't think that Trijicon is that stupid. A $660 million dollar contract isn't something that you just throw away and don't feel it. I also don't think that the Goverment will have a problem going somewhere else either.

    I am in the military and was deployed all last year (and plan on volunteering all of 2011) and have never used a Trijicon. We had Eo-techs on our shotguns and they worked just as you would expect them to.

    "U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents"

    What is so difficult to understand about that statement. To me it reads pretty black and white.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonJDelmon View Post
    I think it is cool. If a company wants to put verses from the Koran and compete, lets see how it sells.
    I'm sure it will sell well to the Muslims. Especially since there are appox 1.525 billion - 1.559 billion or roughly 22.752% - 23.312% of the world population.

    I think that people who are religious are getting angry becaue their religion of choice is being told that you can't do this. This isn't about your religion vs their religion. It's about what the Military Contracts state. If you break a contract then you should pay the consequences, IMO. If the contracts states that you can't do it, then you shouldn't.

    On a side note, I think that the people who are calling them "Jesus Rifles" are a little on the kooky side.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuban11182 View Post
    I don't think that Trijicon is that stupid. A $660 million dollar contract isn't something that you just throw away and don't feel it. I also don't think that the Goverment will have a problem going somewhere else either.

    I am in the military and was deployed all last year (and plan on volunteering all of 2011) and have never used a Trijicon. We had Eo-techs on our shotguns and they worked just as you would expect them to.

    "U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents"

    What is so difficult to understand about that statement. To me it reads pretty black and white.



    I'm sure it will sell well to the Muslims. Especially since there are appox 1.525 billion - 1.559 billion or roughly 22.752% - 23.312% of the world population.

    I think that people who are religious are getting angry becaue their religion of choice is being told that you can't do this. This isn't about your religion vs their religion. It's about what the Military Contracts state. If you break a contract then you should pay the consequences, IMO. If the contracts states that you can't do it, then you shouldn't.

    On a side note, I think that the people who are calling them "Jesus Rifles" are a little on the kooky side.
    Yeah and I bet you always drive the speed limit, never tell a white lie and love paying your taxes.

    Some idiot took offense, probably a liberal American atheist, and had nothing better to do than make a stink.

    Sure...take the cross from around my neck but you won't/can't take away the beliefs that are behind it. I carried my bible to school and attended prayer meetings at the flag pole. I will encourage my children to do the same. Don't tread on me...!!!

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kahr View Post
    Yeah and I bet you always drive the speed limit, never tell a white lie and love paying your taxes
    You're right I don't do all those things. And when I get caught not doing the speed limit, I may complain, but I still pay the consequences. I do pay my taxes though. I find it ironic that I pay taxes to pay for my paycheck. LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kahr View Post
    Some idiot took offense, probably a liberal American atheist, and had nothing better to do than make a stink.
    I agree there probably a liberal American atheist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kahr View Post
    Sure...take the cross from around my neck but you won't/can't take away the beliefs that are behind it. I carried my bible to school and attended prayer meetings at the flag pole. I will encourage my children to do the same. Don't tread on me...!!!
    Now I think you are being a little extreme. Nobody is taking anything from you. I think that if you decide to have your kids follow in your footsteps that it is admirable. As an athiest, if I have kids, I'll allow them to make their own decisions, but I will not brainwash them into thinking that everyone else is wrong (please don't take that I am saying you do that). If they want to go to church I will encourage them to do so. If not, then so be it. I didn't carry a bible to school, but did go to church every wed. night, sunday morning and sunday night till I was 18.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kahr View Post
    Don't tread on me...!!!
    That crazy liberal American athiest, prob feels the same way. IMO

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuban11182 View Post
    You're right I don't do all those things. And when I get caught not doing the speed limit, I may complain, but I still pay the consequences. I do pay my taxes though. I find it ironic that I pay taxes to pay for my paycheck. LOL



    I agree there probably a liberal American atheist.



    Now I think you are being a little extreme. Nobody is taking anything from you. I think that if you decide to have your kids follow in your footsteps that it is admirable. As an athiest, if I have kids, I'll allow them to make their own decisions, but I will not brainwash them into thinking that everyone else is wrong (please don't take that I am saying you do that). If they want to go to church I will encourage them to do so. If not, then so be it. I didn't carry a bible to school, but did go to church every wed. night, sunday morning and sunday night till I was 18.

    That crazy liberal American athiest, prob feels the same way. IMO
    I promise you that a crazy liberal American atheist doesn't understand what that truly means...

    When I say I will encourage my kids to do the same, I was referencing the right to challenge other people trying to tell me what's right and wrong for me.

    You may be an atheist but you we still live in One Nation, Under God Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all. With the liberal media it seems to be harder and harder to stay "Indivisible" because they would sell out their own mother's to push a story.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kahr View Post
    I promise you that a crazy liberal American atheist doesn't understand what that truly means...

    When I say I will encourage my kids to do the same, I was referencing the right to challenge other people trying to tell me what's right and wrong for me..
    I commend you for that. Make sure they stand up for what they believe in, rather than lying down and taking poop from other people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kahr View Post
    You may be an atheist but you we still live in One Nation, Under God Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all. With the liberal media it seems to be harder and harder to stay "Indivisible" because they would sell out their own mother's to push a story.

    I again agree with your comment. Today's liberal media is why I choose to not watch it anymore, instead I'll pick articles off the internet that catch my eye and read. I realize that most of the US is christian and accept that, as long as they follow your previous statement of "don't tread on me".

    To get back on topic. I really could care less about the sights with the christian reference. I just feel that if the contract, if it did state that, then there should be some sort of retribution.

  10. #39
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    Understanding true liberty

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kahr View Post

    Sure...take the cross from around my neck but you won't/can't take away the beliefs that are behind it. I carried my bible to school and attended prayer meetings at the flag pole. I will encourage my children to do the same. Don't tread on me...!!!
    That is your right, but it is not the government's right to tell you that you must do these things. It is not the government's right to push one version of one religion over another. The government, in this case the military, clearly gets it. It is the manufacturer who (apparently?) violated their contract that doesn't get it.

    If you can not comprehend how putting symbols of a specific religion on items used by all members of the military is wrong, you don't understand true liberty. Nor do you believe in or understand the meaning of establishment clause in our constitution.

  11. #40
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    It has been my experience that many "true believers" of any religion (save, perhaps, Buddhism) do not believe in freedom of religion - they believe in freedom of their religion. This, of course, is no form of freedom at all...

    That Trijicon violated the terms of their contract, I don't know. If they have, treat it as any other contract violation - charge deductions, demand the contractor make it right, etc. It does seem clear, however, that they have, at the very least, come within striking distance of breaking the "thou shalt not proselytize" rule that the military imposes.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    That is your right, but it is not the government's right to tell you that you must do these things. It is not the government's right to push one version of one religion over another. The government, in this case the military, clearly gets it. It is the manufacturer who (apparently?) violated their contract that doesn't get it.

    If you can not comprehend how putting symbols of a specific religion on items used by all members of the military is wrong, you don't understand true liberty. Nor do you believe in or understand the meaning of establishment clause in our constitution.
    Please enlighten me on the establishment clause...

    True liberty is freedom from religious persecution. I'm can not tell you what religion to follow but you can not deny that this country was founded on Godly principals. In fact the majority of our founding fathers were ordained ministers. I want to be sure about this fact and will provide the info to back it up.

    I personally think it's BS and I applaud them for at least challenging the system.

  13. #42
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    If Trijicon violated their contract, then nothing can be said. If the gov't or whoever 'they' are who are making a big deal about this, then remove every reference of God whatsoever in all things public. Oh, wait. My bad; 'they' already are.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamRudolph View Post
    I honestly never saw the big deal. It's not an attempt to proselytize, it's the PRIVATELY HELD company paying respects to the faith of its founder with a discreet and generally unrecognizable addition to its serial numbers.
    The problem is that this is directly against federal acquisition regulation (F.A.R.) AND it is not Constitutional to do such things as well, and it is a direct attempt to proselytize as per the mfr. itself and their own as now stated manufacturing policies.
    Further they went on to state ehh we've always done it this way because our founder was a fundamentalist and highly religious as toward the Christian faith.

    Because that's the way you've always done it does not make it right nor lawful, nor being caught any less egregious.

    This is a serious issue as related to procurement regulation and US policy.

    Any persons who have had experience in federal government procurement as at the contracting level (not as a buyer) would know and understand why this is becoming a big deal. It is a thing you do not do regardless of your own specific personal beliefs and it makes no difference what so ever the status of the company being privately held or publicly traded. If they want to do business with the US Govt. then there are rules and regulations as well as conditions to abide by. This would not be an issue though only if the mfr. did not have contracts with the govt. in anyway and their product were purchased as commercial of the shelf (COTS).

    More on the FAR can be found here for those unaware of as much:
    Federal Acquisition Regulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    GSA - Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR)
    https://www.acquisition.gov/far/
    DPAP | Defense Acquisition Regulations System | DFARS/PGI

    Myself I have been directly involved in federal govt. contracting and acquisition/procurement as toward product and services including LEO and military hardware for the last 14 yrs. as a business owner myself of a privately held corporation.

    I assure you this is a serious issue and Trijicon purposefully mocked FAR regs and did so in plain sight, which alone is stunning it went this long without notice.

    This country as by Constitutionality has and dictates a separation between church (religion) and state (government). There is very good and historically valid reason for this as a start and continuance to this day.
    We are a country made up of many different faiths, not just Christianity, and we as a country and government embrace and _respect_ all manners of faith including those who have no faith at all. This is in fact a position in this country as by _LAW_. Further as in our military we have persons as volunteers who come from every walk of life and by that faith. Having such emblazoned hardware and the message(s) as stated, albeit in so called 'Bible code', ans as used in the manner they had, have and will be does nothing but insult those who handle them regardless of faith as specific to their being an American (!)...AND...It just as disrespectful toward our enemies as it is for them to say burn Bibles as we take that as per our own view.

    This is America and what Trijicon has been and is doing is wrong; As by law, business ethics and morality.

    - Janq is a Christian
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #44
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    Janq,

    Excellent Post!

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    The problem is that this is directly against federal acquisition regulation (F.A.R.) AND it is not Constitutional to do such things as well, and it is a direct attempt to proselytize as per the mfr. itself and their own as now stated manufacturing policies.
    Further they went on to state ehh we've always done it this way because our founder was a fundamentalist and highly religious as toward the Christian faith.

    Because that's the way you've always done it does not make it right nor lawful, nor being caught any less egregious.

    This is a serious issue as related to procurement regulation and US policy.

    Any persons who have had experience in federal government procurement as at the contracting level (not as a buyer) would know and understand why this is becoming a big deal. It is a thing you do not do regardless of your own specific personal beliefs and it makes no difference what so ever the status of the company being privately held or publicly traded. If they want to do business with the US Govt. then there are rules and regulations as well as conditions to abide by. This would not be an issue though only if the mfr. did not have contracts with the govt. in anyway and their product were purchased as commercial of the shelf (COTS).

    More on the FAR can be found here for those unaware of as much:
    Federal Acquisition Regulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    GSA - Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR)
    https://www.acquisition.gov/far/
    DPAP | Defense Acquisition Regulations System | DFARS/PGI

    Myself I have been directly involved in federal govt. contracting and acquisition/procurement as toward product and services including LEO and military hardware for the last 14 yrs. as a business owner myself of a privately held corporation.

    I assure you this is a serious issue and Trijicon purposefully mocked FAR regs and did so in plain sight, which alone is stunning it went this long without notice.

    This country as by Constitutionality has and dictates a separation between church (religion) and state (government). There is very good and historically valid reason for this as a start and continuance to this day.
    We are a country made up of many different faiths, not just Christianity, and we as a country and government embrace and _respect_ all manners of faith including those who have no faith at all. This is in fact a position in this country as by _LAW_. Further as in our military we have persons as volunteers who come from every walk of life and by that faith. Having such emblazoned hardware and the message(s) as stated, albeit in so called 'Bible code', ans as used in the manner they had, have and will be does nothing but insult those who handle them regardless of faith as specific to their being an American (!)...AND...It just as disrespectful toward our enemies as it is for them to say burn Bibles as we take that as per our own view.

    This is America and what Trijicon has been and is doing is wrong; As by law, business ethics and morality.

    - Janq is a Christian
    Why not crusade and put that energy where it's better served. Like holding the government accountable for their misuse of power. You an I know that they do unethical things all the time yet instead of holding them accountable we choose to crush anyone who shows any sign of original thinking or moral aptitude.

    Organizations like ACORN should be raked over the coals. The amount of money they have been given is way more than the contract Trijicon just got.

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