AD v. ND

This is a discussion on AD v. ND within the General Firearm Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Moderators sorry if this is miss placed or miss guided. I dont really like the term Accidental Discharge When this happens is it not a ...

View Poll Results: Is there such a thing as Accidental Discharge?

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  • AD's happen.

    44 33.85%
  • There is no such thing as AD all ar Negligent Discharge.

    86 66.15%
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Thread: AD v. ND

  1. #1
    Member Array mitocondriac's Avatar
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    AD v. ND

    Moderators sorry if this is miss placed or miss guided.

    I dont really like the term Accidental Discharge When this happens is it not a Negligent Discharge???

    Can you accidentally discharge a firearm or can you just not show due diligence and respect to the firearm?
    So If Guns Kill People Do Pencils Miss Spell Words???

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  3. #2
    Member Array monk's Avatar
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    Nothing personnel... I just think a lot of this is semantics..... If the gun goes off when it wasn't ment to it was unintentional(No matter if it's stuped or ignorence). People can call it what they will, but it's still going off when it shouldn't, and that has to be checked. I'd rather see more on ways to keep it from happening, even if I think I know it all, I want to learn more on proper safety for handling/control/operaton/accuracy.
    Not saying you don't have a point, it just made me think about what it takes to stop accidents.
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  4. #3
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    There is no such thing as AD all are Negligent Discharge.

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    Accident -n. any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, Tennessee Certified Instructor

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array Avenger's Avatar
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    Everything happens for a reason. NDs happen because people were either irresponsible or stupid. Guns dont shoot themselves!

  7. #6
    pax
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    Senior Member Array pax's Avatar
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    mitocondriac,

    To be strictly accurate, there are other types of unintentional discharges besides the purely negligent.

    Here are some of those types:

    1) Reckless. This is worse than "negligent" (as in "I neglected to follow the Four Rules") behavior. It's behavior that is actively STUPID, like deliberately pointing the gun at your buddy and pulling the trigger just to get a laugh, or like working on handgun disarms with a real firearm instead of a dummy gun. That's not just negligent, that's reckless. The gun handler didn't just neglect to follow the rules; he actively broke the rules on purpose. (I personally am of the opinion that these types should be actively prosecuted in court for the criminal misbehavior they really are.)

    2) Purely negligent. That's where one or more of the Four Rules is neglected or ignored, but not deliberately. A common lament afterward: "But I checked it!" This, too, may result in crippling injury or death; the difference is that the gun-handler was making a good faith effort to follow the rules as he understood them, but either his understanding or his ability was lacking. He had a brain fart and he neglected to follow one or more of the rules. Still guilty, still culpable, but not deliberately throwing the rules out the window.

    3) Purely accidental. This is what happens when something mechanical breaks inside the firearm and a shot is fired without any gun-handling mistakes being part of the equation. With a purely accidental discharge, the safety rules are being followed, and nobody gets hurt because the gun was deliberately pointed in a safe direction. No human finger touched the trigger when the gun discharged. The discharge itself was an unforeseeable mechanical happenstance, and no negligent behavior was involved.

    4) A mix of 'accident' and 'negligent.' For instance, some years back there was a tragic story in the news about a woman who was hunting with her family. They returned to the camp from the morning hunt and she went to unload her Remington 700. As she offed the safety and began to open the action, the gun fired. Her finger was definitely NOT on the trigger; the mechanical defect that caused the shot to fire without the trigger being touched was obvious to the gunsmith upon examination after the fact. So far, pure accident & no negligence. Except for this: she had allowed the muzzle to point in an unsafe direction while she handled the firearm, even though her finger was not on the trigger. The shot traveled through the family's horse trailer and came to rest inside the body of her 9-year-old son, who died in her arms shortly afterward. A terrible, terrible thing. Preventable if she had followed ALL FOUR of the safety rules. Unfortunately, the event had elements of the purely accidental (an unforseeable mechanical happenstance) as well as human negligence. And a child died for it.

    All of these fall under the general umbrella of "unintentional discharge." Trying to call all of them negligent does a disservice to people who carefully follow the rules but have a firearm break on them -- and it muddies the waters severely when discussing firearms safety. Remember: all of the safety rules always apply, whether you think the gun is loaded or not. It's a lot easier to make this point when discussing the line between negligent discharges and accidental ones. Erasing that distinction means there's no way to discuss how to avoid tragedy when a firearm mechanically breaks.

    pax
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  8. #7
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    Accidental could occur if the gun should not have fired under the conditions, i.e. it is dropped and a weak/broken spring causes it to fire.

    Negligent is the vast majority, where proper gun safety rules are not followed, usually by pulling the trigger when removing it.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  9. #8
    Distinguished Member Array AKsrule's Avatar
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    While I believe there is no such thing as "accidentally" pulling
    the trigger , guns do break and thus there ARE on rare occasions
    accidental discharges.
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  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    I had a buddy accidentally drop an old derringer that didn't have a transfer bar and therefore went off when it struck the hammer. That may have been an accident. However, carrying correctly would have alleviated the problem, so there was at least some negligence in there as well. So it's a combination IMO.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
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  11. #10
    Distinguished Member Array jarhead79's Avatar
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    One example, because you didn't specifically say hangun. I was on the range whilst serving my country and my M16 decided it would continue shooting more times than I chose to pull the trigger.

    Everyone knows how to take the play out of a trigger during rapid fire, or just in the recoil of any shot. Now, have the gun go BOOM as you're letting the trigger OUT.

    In my opinion, that is an accidental discharge.
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  12. #11
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    There most definitely is such a thing as an accidental discharge. I know. I've had one. Had a Remington 700 discharge once when I clicked the safety off. Finger was not touching the trigger. While not common, this was a known problem with the older Remington 700s that required you to take the gun off safety before opening the bolt.

    How about the guy who is now serving time for the AR15 that he loaned a friend that went full auto at the range because of a mechanical problem? To emphatically say that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge is to completely disregard the possibility of a mechanical malfunction.

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  13. #12
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    To declare every unintended discharge as negligent vs. accidental is simply irresponsible. Why I would even care, I'm just not sure...
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  14. #13
    Senior Member Array nightsonge's Avatar
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    I don't believe in EITHER Accidental or Negligent discharge, it's either mechanical failure or MORON discharge.
    A 1911 is Not an obsession, it's simply a recognition that it's THE Gun. :-) All others are runner ups. And hey, if all else fails, aim for the nose and fling it to knock out your foe. Let's see y'all do that with a kel-Tec. ;-)

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    Let me offer two examples for discussion:

    Gunshop owner takes posession of newly manufatured Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS) to be used for behind the counter defense. When he loads it the 1st time the mechanism breaks and a OO buck round is fired into the floor.

    A gunsmith is testing a cheap foreign-made semi auto shotgun for feeding problems. Racking shells from the magazine to the chamber by hand, since the gun will not cycle them in live fire. As the action closes on the third shell the gun fires. Finger off trigger, safety button on. OO buck round (the first 2 were # 7 1/2 birdshot) hits a metal door in the back of the shop wall.

    These have been brought up before and always start an interesting debate.

  16. #15
    Ex Member Array Will B. Droopy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    [B]4) As she offed the safety and began to open the action, the gun fired. Her finger was definitely NOT on the trigger; the mechanical defect that caused the shot to fire without the trigger being touched was obvious to the gunsmith upon examination after the fact. The shot traveled through the family's horse trailer and came to rest inside the body of her 9-year-old son, who died in her arms shortly afterward.
    If that kind of tragedy occurred while I was holding that Remington, I just couldn't take it: I'd like to think I'd have the guts to fire the 700 one very last time that morning; but it wouldn't be an accidental or a negligent discharge...

    -Bill

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