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One shot stops. Important?

4K views 34 replies 27 participants last post by  OPFOR 
#1 · (Edited)
My question is this: We put so much focus on one shot stops but does it really mean anything?

I've been shooting .357s and .40s for years because they hit harder than a 9mm. My thinking is that I may have been wrong this whole time. When I shoot a CCW sized pistol I can shoot (and hit with) my wife's 9mm faster than my .357. So is accuracy and fast follow ups the reason that soooo many times we see bgs with multiple 9mm hits?

Is it possible that a 9mm is not a wimp gun but just faster and easier to shoot, creating more hits and a poorer one shot stop rating? Instead of getting 2 shots off and hitting 1, we get 5 shots off and hit 4. Is multiple hits really a badge of honor and not a curse? discuss...
 
#3 ·
I can shoot my 40S&W rounds just as fast if not faster than a 9mm.... I give it partly to the fact that my gun has a low bore axis and a well balanced slide. Both of which allow me for good well placed shots as well as fast follow ups...

I suggest more training with your .357 and 40S&W natural point and aim techniques if you have never tried them. YOU as a human while in a gun fight will naturally focus on the BG or threat, not on your sights (i.e. Crimson Trace Lasers are good for this reason) but natural point and aim techniques are useful in some cases.
 
#4 ·
IMO, no.

I can only imagine that if I am ever in a situation where I need to shoot I will not shoot only one shot. Heck, I train to get off 5 rds as fast a possible. Why would anyone rely on a one shot stop? I've never really understood that. My G19 gets back on target faster than my S&W 45 or my P3AT .380. There is a lot of talk of making one good shot or shot placement. I prefer to believe in shot'S placement, the more the better. Seems to me that if they were a big enough threat to justify shooting, then they continue to be a threat as long as they are upright. Unless they are actually running away from you.

I don't do the caliber wars thing either. I carry a 9mm for many reasons. I train with it and have no problems trusting it. If anyone shoot's better with X, Y or Z caliber then that's the one for you. But if you are relying on a one shot stop, you may want to do some research on that. I'm not betting my life on it.
 
#5 ·
Considering the ammo available today for the 9mm. I don't see the .357 or .40 offering too much of a effective advantage. In similar guns, most people can deliver more shots accurately much faster with the 9mm than any other major power chamberings. There are some very good 124 gr loads at 12-1300 fps that pretty much duplicate a .357 125gr out of a shorter than 4" barrel but in a easier to shoot package. People don't usually call a .357 snub wimpy but some have no problem labeling the 9mm so. :scruntiny:
 
#6 ·
One shot stop????..........you better be using a .30 caliber rifle or better. All common handgun rounds are not up for the one shot kill, ecxept headshot.
 
#7 ·
One Shot Stops Important?

Though ideal...Just exactly HOW important will vary and be relative to the scenario.
If there are three bad guys running at you & trying to kill you and one has a tire iron and one sports a machete and the other a baseball bat....and you are armed with a 5 shot revolver...then going for "one shot stops" becomes incredibly important.

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"Is it possible that a 9mm is not a wimp gun but just faster and easier to shoot, creating more hits and a poorer one shot stop rating? Instead of getting 2 shots off and hitting 1, we get 5 shots off and hit 4, is multiple hits really a badge of honor and not a curse? discuss..."

The 9mm - Oh you mean the .380 LONG cartridge? :hand5:
It's possible that it's not a wimp cartridge. :biggrin2:
On a serious note, there is some logical truth to that. To a degree.
If "faster and easier to shoot" was exclusively KING then a high capacity .22 LR would be the ideal self-defense firearm?
Because instead of getting 5 shots off and hitting with 4...you could get 12 shots off and hit with 11.
My suggestion is for folks to carry the most powerful cartridge that they can shoot accurately and access quickly.

It's incredibly important to carry the self-defensive firearm in a manner that it can be accessed lightning fast AKA ASAP.
That is more important than an attempted one shot stop.
If the BG is "closing in fast" and ready to violently cave in your skull & your defense gun is way down in your pants keeping company with your jingle-berries then the County Coroner is going to take your forensic PIC laying there with your "gun hand" down your Fruit Of The Loomer Bloomers.
So NEVER carry any deeper or more "concealed" than is absolutely necessary. :nono:
Always being able to get to your firearm quickly (and I mean fast) usually trumps caliber and/or capacity.
That is my personal opinion. Others may have a differing opinion which is fine with me.
For the majority of self-defense scenarios I (personally) would much rather have a proved reliable .380 that I can access in one second (or less) than a 17 shot 9mm that I could only get into play in 3 or 4 seconds.
Again...just my personal opinion.

For me my personal "carry ideal" is a single stack .45acp carried OWB which is easy to shoot (suffers some on capacity) conceals very well (on me) POINTS NATURALLY where I look...and has a lightning quick presentation with a crisp, consistent, trigger.

For somebody else it will be different but, I only have to worry about saving my own "tushy" and not theirs. :biggrin2:
 
#9 ·
I personally feel one shot with anything is probably pretty discouraging to anyone with more than two working brain cells.
 
#11 ·
I believe that accuracy is king, especially in this day and age when ballistics and bullet design are so much improved over even a decade ago. A 9mm is just as effective as a .45 in real-life scenarios, in which the deciding factor is shot placement. No pistol round has anything resembling "stopping power." That is Hollywood pure and simple.

So carry the gun that you can reliably and consistently put multiple shots on target quickly.

And carry a couple of backup mags for when things get really hairy.
 
#12 ·
Thanks for the input. To all the folks who said train harder...You guys make me laugh. I do train. I shoot a ton although, due to ammo price, not as much as I'd like. I train with a master class shooter as a coach and use a timer to measure splits. My splits are just plain better with a 9mm. Remember folks we are talking about small pistols here. I'm comparing my Karh CW9 vs my .357 snubby and a couple of small .40s.

I shoot my full size double stack 1911 style .40 quite fast, but I don't use it for anything other than IPSC.
 
#14 ·
I'm not a big believer in the one shot stop as the factor of overriding importance in choosing a carry gun or caliber.

For one, one shot stops are pretty fickle. They depend on shot placement, caliber, the mental and emotional state of the person being shot, and dozens of other factors, many of which are completely uncontrollable. And, to be honest, they depend on the congruence of the stars with just the right amount of luck.

For another, anyone worth shooting is worth shooting multiple times.

And lastly, the terminal performance of any high-end ammunition in 9mm, .40, or .45 is so close that any difference is probably practically meaningless. Is a .45 .1 inch wider than a 9mm? Yes. Fully expanded, a .45 jacketed hollow point is a bit bigger than a 9mm. But the odds of that making a difference would seem to be practically nonexistent.
 
#15 ·
The simple fact is that all shooting are one shot stops. Now whether it's the first shot or tenth, you shoot to stop the threat and the last shot is the one that stopped the threat if you do it right.

So many people get into the single shot, double taps, Mozambique drill, routines that they forget that you may need a few more to finish what the bad guy started.

Don't be the one that shoots two rounds and holsters because that's how you trained just to realize that the foe is still going.

Personally, if it takes the entire magazine (clip for the anal retentive type) then that's fine, that's what it took to stop the threat.

If you shoot better with a 9mm then by all means keep going, don't let caliber wars sway your choice.

I like 9mm because it's still cheaper to shoot and that equates to more range time.
 
#16 ·
I'm ASSUMING the original poster, when he mentions shooting a lot of .357 and .40 rounds that he is referring to the .357 SIG semi-auto pistol round rather than the .357 Magnum revolver round, because, with a handgun, the .357 Magnum in 125 grain jacketed hollow point configuration fired from a four (4) inch barrel DOES provide the closest thing to 100% one shot stops! In fact, when it was routinely being used by law enforcement, it was sometimes called the "magic bullet"!
 
#17 ·
You know what happens when you assume....357 mag in a 2 inch 5 shot snubbie. I know it hits hard but it beats the poop out of me. Like I said I shoot it plenty but I shoot the 9 twice as fast and with better accuracy.
 
#20 ·
The FBI used to use the 9mm. After the big shootout, they decided they needed a round that was bigger and more powerful.

It's a balance between capacity and penetration. 9's you can carry a lot, great for suppressing fire, but they don't hit like a .40 or .45. If you're going to get a hit, you want it to be as hard as possible.
 
#24 ·
That was a long time ago. 9 mm ammunition has developed considerably since. As I remember, the bgs were using assault rifles against which pistols were a poor choice. I think most agencies carry m16s now for such situations.
 
#21 ·
To summarize "Tactical Anatomy" by Dr. Jim Williams; it's impossible to tell the caliber of a bullet simply by measuring the wound channel. All service caliber pistol rounds have a similar ballistic effect. Whether JHP or FMJ, virtually all shots to the torso are through and through, unless they strike the T-Spine or another major structure.

Jim summed it up really well--carry what you like and can shoot well. It's all about shot placement, and you should not feel under gunned with a 9mm or invulnerable with a .45 ACP.

For the record, Jim carries a .45 ACP and is a Master in CDP.

Dan
 
#22 ·
I think it's a trade off. The .40 hits harder (but not that much) and the nine is easier to control. I've gotten where I can put four 9 mm rounds center mass in a little over 1 second.

I love them all. I went to the range with my snubby the other day and shot a box of 38 special followed by a box of .357. It's practice.
 
#25 ·
Is it possible that a 9mm is not a wimp gun but just faster and easier to shoot, creating more hits and a poorer one shot stop rating? Instead of getting 2 shots off and hitting 1, we get 5 shots off and hit 4. Is multiple hits really a badge of honor and not a curse? discuss...
That's how I look at it. However, I've gone back to carrying my .357 more often now, because in timed tests.... I can shoot 7 shots out of my .357 at the same rate as 9-10 out of the 9mm, and do it much more accurately. Best of both worlds for me.
 
#30 ·
Here is the best answer to the OP's original question...:yup:...and I couldn't agree more.:hand10:
 
#28 ·
I watched a video on TV where they showed police chasing a 20 yr old in a car. He phoned home and left them a message, he was sorry but this was the last time they would hear from him. When they pitted him and he came to a stop, he came out shooting. He and the officer were about 8-10 ft away from each other when the shooting started and about 40 ft apart when it ended ... the whole time in the 'open' ... did not use the car for cover.

On the 2nd - 3rd shot the 20 yr old dropped..... but was still shooting , although hit. The officer and the following officer... did not stop shooting until their guns were empty and there was no gun fire coming from the 20 yr old anymore. He was killed. Neither officer was injured.

I would hate to even try to count the # of shots fired... a bunch.

One shot .. stop .... makes for good movies.
 
#31 ·
I don't think it matters because if I have to shoot once you better believe that is going to be closely followed by shots 2, 3, and 4!! :bigun2:
 
#32 ·
My question would be: What guarantee do you have that you are going to get a one-stop shot from any gun of any caliber?

Yes, if you have five bullets and three assailants you HAVE to make those rounds count but there is no guarantee, even if you do happen to make head shots in every case, that the assailants are going to go down and/or stop fighting.

There was a case of a police officer in Georgia who was shot point blank in the face while preforming a traffic stop. He was aware enough to return fire and survived.

Read the book, "The Year We Disappeared." A police officer shot in the side of the face with a shotgun. He never lost consciousness and was even writing notes about who he thought did it while they were waiting for the ambulance to arrive.

As pointed out, one-stop shots look great on the movies but in actuality we have absolutely no assurance that our bullets or guns are going to make someone stop.

We are all pretty aware that drugs or even desperation can keep someone going despite incredible odds.

People are shot with shotguns, blown up with grenades, rifles, etc, and still survive.

We've all seen the famous Brad Kasal photo of the Marine getting helped from the house in Iraq still holding his M9, finger off trigger.

The man was shot seven times, had taken the brunt of the blast from a grenade, lost half of his blood and was kept conscious by will power alone. Of course he is a good guy but it stands to reason that if one good man can stay alive despite the odds, a bad guy can do the same.

Not to mention that taking the time to stop and assess whether or not your one shot had the stopping effects you were hoping for is precious time wasted that you should probably be following up with more well-placed shots (if you even remember drawing and firing to begin with).

I don't get to caught up in the idea of one-stop shots. I do believe they are possible but if/when they happen I would look at them as a gift rather than something I expected.

One of my instructors once said, "Expect to have to fire your gun empty, reload and empty that magazine, beat them to death with your empty gun and cut their head off with your pocket knife. If the fight ends before all that you can be pleasantly surprised."

I don't feel under-gunned with a lower capacity firearm. I'm not out there looking for trouble. But, were I a police officer or required to go into questionable neighborhoods for jobs, etc, you can bet all you own that I would be carrying the highest capacity available in the largest caliber I can comfortably handle and I'm shooting until slide-lock.
 
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