A Word of Advice on Hearing Protection - Page 2

A Word of Advice on Hearing Protection

This is a discussion on A Word of Advice on Hearing Protection within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Great advice!...

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Thread: A Word of Advice on Hearing Protection

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array bsnow's Avatar
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    Great advice!
    Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. PSALM 144:1

    I CLING to my guns and my Bible.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Nobody says you have to have them hanging around your neck when the police arrive. Why would anyone need to know other than you that you were protecting your hearing? That's a personal decision and is an irrelevent matter to the investigation...I would liken it to putting on your shoes before checking something out at night...no need to mention that either.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    I've been doing this for quite some time; my pair of Tac-6's sits next to the G34 in the bedside drawer.

    It just makes sense...and I've never really expereinced any of the problem with ambient noise mentioned above.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Semper Fi,

    It is an industry norm to train wearing electronic ears and has been for over a decade now including live fire and FoF with Sims.
    I've done both and have no problem at all detecting correct direction.
    Same gos for competition sport at indoor ranges where the air handler is running. No problems and I have literally stood for hours among that while with ears on and could easily hear conversation level talking as well as range commands and ability to tell what direction a sound is coming from spoken or shot (?).

    As to air ducts and ceiling fan noise they have to be running pretty high creating a tremendous amount of air flow volume to cause any issue and white noise. In an average persons home no such item of air high volume movement is within norms.
    As well one can simply turn down the volume. If the air handler or ceiling fan noise is of such high air movement/mechanical noise volume to disrupt e-ears then the wearer would have been deafened anyway without ear pro.

    Industrial and commercial sectors have been using same under same and much higher noise conditions for some time now too.

    Peltor Headsets
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS_1xunwobg

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    I've been running a gun for quite awhile as well and I don't find the use of electronics to be the norm in law enforcement.

    I will just say that I had a problem using electronics (Peltor SwatTacs) in training and I would not trust them for a live search.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array usmc3169's Avatar
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    Gotta chime in on this one.... forget the ear muffs - this is why.

    AUDITORY EXCLUSION

    If you ahve ever hunted you know what I mean. If you have ever been in a real gun fight you know what I mean.

    When the fight or flight response kicks in your ears protect themselves. When you fire a hunting rifle at a target in a fast encounter (IE combat situation, meeting engagement) you dont feel the recoil, and you sure dont hear the loud report. But you hear everything around you clearly. Your ears know how to protect themselves in life and death situations.

    Combat was the same way. All I ever heard of my M16A4 even in houses was the cycling of the buffer spring and the mechanical movements of the trigger group.... and that was because my jaw bone was in contact with the rifle and transmitting the sounds around my outer ear, and straight to my inner ear.

    The only time that I can think of where my ears werent protected was when my .50 cal gunner let go a 100 round "burst" when my head was 12 inches below the end of the barrel.

    the best thing you can do for yourselves in a real HD situation is to make sure you can hear as clearly as possible.

    (and no, electronic earmuffs are not part of any military or law enforcement training program that I have ever taken part in.)
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    USMC,

    Auditory exclusion is a temporary psychological effect...A concept of conscious brain interface to the ear in processing of sound energy.

    Hearing loss is permanent loss of the ear structures ability to process sound energy.

    Auditory exclusion is brought on by stress and is a human psychological reaction.

    Hearing loss is brought on by damage from either sound energy, sound pressure as a wave as well as suddenly increased or decreased air pressure.

    The human brain can and does turn auditory exclusion on and off.
    Also the human brain by way of exposure can be trained to not activate auditory exclusion.

    While hearing loss cannot be turned on and off, and it is not something that can be hardened by exposure or training. The nerve endings and follicles within the inner ear are structures that do not regenerate.

    When fight or flight kicks in your ears do not protect themselves.
    The structures are exposed to the same sound energies, sound pressures and atmospheric conditions whether your brain allows you to recognize them as such or not. The ears offer no protection. The brain though does selectively filter sound energy to the conscious singularly. Sound pressure and atmospheric conditions though remain unchanged in the physical and actual whether one consciously realizes it or not.

    There is much writing on this as well as real world evidence of same and has been for decades.

    Additional reading:

    Sound Advice by Amin Musani, Au.D. [Doctor of Audiology]
    http://www.keepandbeararms.com/downl...oundAdvice.PDF

    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/nois...dous_ACGIH.pdf

    Noise-Induced Hearing Loss
    PETER M. RABINOWITZ, M.D., M.P.H.,
    Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut
    Noise-Induced Hearing Loss - May 1, 2000 - American Academy of Family Physicians

    Don't Let Gun Sports Backfire on You:
    Use Ear Protection and Hang Onto Your Hearing
    Don't Let Gun Sports Backfire on You: Use Ear Protection and Hang Onto Your Hearing [NIDCD Inside]

    ..."Loud noise, such as the 140-decibel blast of a rifle, can irreparably damage the specialized cells of the inner ear—called hair cells—that enable us to hear," says James F. Battey, Jr., M.D., Ph.D., director of NIDCD. "So it is vitally important for us to protect our ears when we are repeatedly exposed to loud noise."

    The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), recommends that hunters and shooters wear earplugs and earmuffs together when firing guns, to increase the amount of hearing protection provided.

    Yet, according to a 2000 study supported by the NIH, too many male hunters and target shooters are not wearing ear protection at all. In fact, of the approximately 1,500 Wisconsin men who participated in the study, 95 percent of those who hunt and 38 percent of those who target shoot had never worn ear protection during the year preceding the study. (Women were not included in the study since few women from the study community had recently participated in either activity.)

    Most notably, the study demonstrates a direct link between hunting or target shooting and high-frequency hearing loss in men. High-frequency hearing loss is the reduction of the ear's ability to hear high-frequency sounds, the sounds that are necessary for understanding speech.

    Henderson, an avid outdoor sportsman who has published four books on hunting, along with thousands of newspaper and magazine articles on hunting and shooting, discovered his hearing loss at age 19 during a physical he took for the military...
    For an idea of what ranges of sound energy fall within see the following...


    Auditory exclusion as a function that is commonly assumed and promoted as being some how physically protective to the structure of the ear does not in science play out to be a fact when reviewed by medical testing. It never has, and has never been a truth to that end. Even as many people believe it so or heard it to be so per being told same from some other person who had heard or believed it to be so.

    All those law enforcement, military personnel and hunters from generations and decades past even up to current who did not wear hearing protection upon being exposed to firearm discharges, even just one shot, have and did suffer real damage. Damage that even if their conscious mind did not register it as being loud, painful or even 'heard' was still in the physical world a reality.

    As to wearing of electronic protection in military and law enforcement in my regular world work my company is ion marketing & sales, to government as specializing in specific markets. Markets including specifically law enforcement, military and para-military agencies. My companies clients include manufacturers and dealers of this gear as well as other ear protection devices including the Aearo 'C.A.E.' I'd mentioned before as are now standard issue among the military widely; http://www.aearoweb.com/sites/milita...267CAE_FAQ.pdf
    These vendors are selling electronic ear protection left and right with some from Peltor in specific being priced at $200+ govt/GSA rate.

    Although you may not have had experience in their use, yet, I absolutely positively assure you that they are and have been in play...As that is one of the means that I make my bones.
    As to law enforcement agencies everybody knows they are and have been under tight budget constraints state and local. Most of them in specific continue to use old school ear muffs in training courses et. al. It is the rare few now days in modern times that use nothing....And those such agencies are living in the relative stone ages.

    Below are images and video examples of serious law enforcement, military and para-military training where specifically electronic ear-pro have been in use and is a norm among industry. Be sure to pay attention to folks heads...

    Magpul Dynamics SWAT Training
    YouTube - Magpul Dynamics SWAT Training

    SIG SAUER Academy
    YouTube - SIG SAUER Academy

    Xe Pistol Training Course
    YouTube - Xe Pistol Training Course

    Tour of Gunsite
    YouTube - Tour of Gunsite

    GUNSITE URBAN COMBAT
    YouTube - GUNSITE URBAN COMBAT - How to Load an AK-47


    Source - Today's Pix - Tuesday, April 17th, 2007

    These units as by various mfrs. are designed to be PASGT compliant and as worn fit within and under the current issue helmet with comfort. manufacturers specifically offer models just to this end for again these specific non-civilian markets, and have been for over a decade.

    Anyway I'm getting off topic.

    The bottom line is that you or anyone will find it extremely difficult to find documented medical support to the view that auditory exclusion is protective in any physical way to ones ears in the way reducing sound energy, sound pressure and/or atmospheric pressure. As well it will be equally difficult to find documentation to support that it somehow retards or even prevents hearing loss be it in the immediate or long term.
    Auditory exclusion is just a literal trick of the mind (our brain) as related to how it processes sensory input (primary) and thereafter provides it to our conscious being (secondary) as through filtering.

    A whole lot of deafened police, military, hunters and sporting & recreational civilian shooters can and do attest to this, either directly or by way of those who know and live with them among their degree of deafness.

    - Janq

    P.S. - I have never taken to the field to hunt nor stepped foot on a range to shoot for training or sporting without wearing ears _and_ eyes. For me it's mandatory if I'm planning to hold or be around guns that might go BANG.
    I enjoy hearing things like birds, wind among trees, insects buzzing and my kids whispering stuff to each other from around a corner too much not to.
    Almost every hunter instructor I know has at one time or another stated that he/she can't hear and has suffered real to them perceptible loss. By the time you can actually perceive it, that's when it's really bad. :(
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Your Google-fu is impressive.

    Don't be confused here. I think we are all proponents of hearing protection in live fire training. This is where electronics excel. I wear them anytime I'm doing live fire.

    Back on point here. I agree with you that they (electronics) are a standard in training and to not use them on the range is a mistake; but they are not the norm on the street or for specialized tactical applications in law enforcement since they do not benefit the operator to enhance his search skillset. If they did work, I would be the first to wear them when going through the door.

    My point is to advise the average CCW who may not have a bevy of practical search experience that the use of electronics could be disadvantageous.

    I try to wear my Sure-Fire Ear Pros but sometimes it just doesn't work out that way.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array usmc3169's Avatar
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    JANQ, I will concede the point to you - well put. As far as a real life HD or SD shooting, I still can't trust electronic "ears" to reliably tell me where sound is coming from - I am willing to take a bit of a pounding on the ol ear drums to make absolutely sure that my family is protected.

    Training is another matter all together. I wear hearing protection nearly every time I shoot. But based on my personal experiences I will not wear it in a real shooting (unless I am already at the range with it on :-) )

    I also question the study(s) in question. My hearing after a decade in the infantry with hundreds of live fire machine gun, mortar and demolitions ranges (actually probably over a 1000) as well as nearly 100 (rough guess) firefights - tested to be as good as the day I entered the service - (no knee injuries, hip injuries, back inuries either.... some how I escaped with absolutely 0% disability :-) )
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Honestly Semper (and USMC) it took me roughly :15 to locate all of the links provided.
    The information as content I already knew and share direct with students as an instructor. I'd learned this stuff ages ago.

    Of course to the item of wearing ears at all under HD conditions not everyone everytime can do so. and to expect as much would be silly.
    But to the main and very important health related point of protecting ones ears if and when ever they can from gun fire, that is an item that is quite often overlooked and/or assumed to be minor when fact is it is not. : |

    Instructors as of current, including myself, push eye and ear pro as being something folk should deem mandatory when using firearms, and to seek out the best that they can afford as a one time personal investment.
    You only have one set of ears and eyes, with hearing aids costing upwards of two grand as against some $200 or much less electro ears.

    - Janq

    P.S. - I mention this and di the above work prior not to be malicious but to educate.
    Not just you two guys but any and all others reading this thread so they too aren't inadvertently or wrongly exposing themself to irreversible preventable hearing damage and associated health risk.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Janq

    Like I said your Google-Fu is good!

    If I'm reading you correctly - were on the same page.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array usmc3169's Avatar
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    Janq, I think the issue where we differ is simply this "under HD conditions not everyone everytime can do so."

    I would replace that phrase with "under HD condition a person should not" It would have to be a very specific circumstance (that I have not been able to concieve of yet) where I would recomend wearing hearing protection in a real shooting. Like I said, in training they are a must have, in fact if you can afford electronic protection, even better.

    The intent of the original post was to use hearing protection in a SD or HD scenario.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Exodus's Avatar
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    It is arguments like this that make me want a suppressor!

    I'd much rather grab my weapon and be good to go to protect myself, my home and my hearing rather than grabbing a weapon and some ear-muffs.
    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

    SIC VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array usmc3169's Avatar
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    I like it.... suppressor. :-)
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed Exodus a suppressor would be nice but they are still loud just reduced but not eliminated in db.
    USMC if the opportunity avails itself I would encourage e-ears for the defensive shooter. Again per my prior posts before your I IRL do and have been for ages supporting just same to that end.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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