Wife had a set back--need help

Wife had a set back--need help

This is a discussion on Wife had a set back--need help within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I finally thought I was turning my wife around to realizing what we all know regarding the evil in society and the importance of self ...

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  1. #1
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    Wife had a set back--need help

    I finally thought I was turning my wife around to realizing what we all know regarding the evil in society and the importance of self defense, especially carrying a firearm. I was reading the local paper tonight regarding the linked article here http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...lawyers_s.html regarding an attorney that got shot at a gun range and his gun was stolen. I mentioned something to her if she had read it. She said, "Yeah, live by the gun, die by the gun". "I just read an article yesterday that said that women who carry guns are more likely to get killed by them".

    Obviously, I did not want to make up some statistic on the spot. However, can anyone point me in the direction of some reliable data that supports or refutes that statement?

    This has got me bummed because I thought I was getting her to see things my way. This is a huge setback and I'm not happy.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Sounds like anti gun BS,a lady is more likely to be robbed raped and killed if they are unarmed,99% of the homicides you read about were caused by the victim being unable to defend themselves
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  3. #3
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    I don't recall any reports of any woman being killed by her own gun unless maybe in a domestic dispute (where all bets are off). But there are plenty of reports (The Armed Citizen, etc.) where an armed woman has fought off a burgler, etc. So...
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Member Array ItsMyRight2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Sounds like anti gun BS,a lady is more likely to be robbed raped and killed if they are unarmed,99% of the homicides you read about were caused by the victim being unable to defend themselves
    I agree! It does sound like the article your referring to was written by anti gun fruits.
    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  5. #5
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    I'm going to dig through the old newspapers and see if I can find the article. I have to believe your assertions are correct.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MP45Man View Post
    She said, "Yeah, live by the gun, die by the gun". "I just read an article yesterday that said that women who carry guns are more likely to get killed by them".
    That's strictly anecdotal and won't pass a fact check. That kind of statement ranks with "I would have been killed if I'd been wearing a seatbelt..."
    Good luck with your quest, and remember this is a string you can't push across the table. Don't argue the point, but remain steadfast in your own values and beliefs.
    Smitty
    NRA Endowment Member

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    I think I found my rebuttal. Check out page 28. This is a good read for any of us.
    http://www.gunfacts.info/
    Last edited by MP45Man; July 23rd, 2010 at 10:50 PM. Reason: File did not attach--used link

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    I can't help you with statistics, but I'll give my opinion on your wife's other comment of "live by the gun, die by the gun."

    IMO this is a modern variation of Christ's words from Matthew 26 when he told Peter that "all who draw the sword will die by the sword." However, this statement does not pertain to defensive uses of a weapon, but rather to offensive uses of a weapon as were Peter's actions at Gethsemane, actions which immediately preceded and provoked the comment from Christ.

    Regarding Christ's views on carrying weapons, in Luke 22 he commanded his disciples to arm themselves. Not only did he approve of his disciples carrying weapons, he commanded them to do so.

    It was the offensive use of weapons that caused Christ to issue the statement, not the defensive use of weapons. IMO the statement pertains to those who have a lifestyle of using weapons offensively on others, such as we see with career criminals and those who are habitually violent.

    Whether your wife is a Christian or not, she is misusing the phrase and assigning it a meaning that was not present in the original statements.

    In the attorney's situation, the "live by the gun, die by the gun" would refer to the shooter/thief, not the attorney.

  9. #9
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    There are outrageous statistics everywhere and one must remember that you can make a statistic say anything you like if you control the variables. When people start throwing around statistics I start yawning and I turn my ears off unless it's something as simple as, "There are 100 marbles on this table. 50% of them are red."

    Instead of putting so much energy into proving her wrong, why don't you get her to think a little bit more about it by engaging her in conversation. Asking things like, "That article you read about women getting their guns taken away. Did it give any examples or stories? I'd be interested to read about it," or "I wonder what they are basing their study on? Did it say?"

    In honesty, these are things I'd want to know if I read the article myself and picking apart the article with her may show her there is no real basis for their argument.

    As a woman who carries it is a very scary and real thing to think about a stronger, larger man taking my gun away from me. I won't be arrogant enough to say it couldn't ever happen because I know it could. In practice it has happened and it was a very sobering moment in my training continuum.

    Your wife should know that it can happen and that it is necessary to train for that possibility.

    Then again, that may be something she never wants to happen even in the remotest of possibilities and so to avoid that she decides not to carry and that is her right and should be respected.

    When I first started carrying and my mother found out we had a long talk about why I felt I needed to carry and my mothers fears and worries.

    She flat-out said, "I could not shoot someone. I just couldn't do it. I don't hold anything against anyone who could but I would hesitate and more than likely have the gun taken away from me and probably used on me. I should not be someone who is carrying a gun. I would be much better off with pepper spray or something along those lines."

    It infuriates my Dad that he can't convince her to use a gun and I keep telling him that it's a great thing she knows her own limitations, whether they be physical or mental. She knows what she is capable of and therefore she can amend what she knows to work for her in some way. Even if it doesn't work for her, she is an adult and this is her decision. She will vote for the right to carry. She is perfectly fine with those who carry. She lets up kids and Dad open carry all over her house without a single word but she just won't do it herself.

    Perhaps your wife is like that too. And though you may not like it. Though it may scare you. It's her decision whether she carries or not and working her over about it won't help you or her. Even if she does decide to carry I hope it's not just because you want her to. A gun in the hands of someone who can't or won't use it is worse than no gun at all.

    Now, I really don't know if you are trying to get her to carry or if you are just trying to get her to better accept your carrying. So if it's the latter then disregard the above because it really doesn't apply except that you really can't cram stuff into people's heads. You can present them with the information but that doesn't mean it will change their mind.

    The best thing for her is to see you responsibly carrying.

    There are a lot of guys on this forum who started carrying with their wives against it and after a couple of years of quietly going about their business, one day the wife says, "Do you have it with you?" They say, "Yes," and the wife says, "Good. I feel better with you having it."

    This is because they have seen, not from a new article or some abstract posting but with their own two eye in their own family and home, just how responsible and careful an armed citizen can be.

    Being a good, caring, loving, armed husband is going to go WAY farther than any statistic you might read her.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MP45Man View Post
    I finally thought I was turning my wife around to realizing what we all know regarding the evil in society and the importance of self defense, especially carrying a firearm. I was reading the local paper tonight regarding the linked article here http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...lawyers_s.html regarding an attorney that got shot at a gun range and his gun was stolen. I mentioned something to her if she had read it. She said, "Yeah, live by the gun, die by the gun". "I just read an article yesterday that said that women who carry guns are more likely to get killed by them".

    Obviously, I did not want to make up some statistic on the spot. However, can anyone point me in the direction of some reliable data that supports or refutes that statement?

    This has got me bummed because I thought I was getting her to see things my way. This is a huge setback and I'm not happy.
    The statement is opinion...not based on fact and it's hard to find evidence to prove a negative. Who says newpapers print facts!? If she truly believes that, they I would write the reporter an e-mail and ask them where they got their "facts" and "statistics"....IF you get a response--show it to your wife. The response will either be anecdotal evidence (I heard...; the police say...; I had a friend...; other news reports say...) or "statistics" from the Brady Center....or you will get bluster and more opinion. Show your wife the news report statement cannot be supported by facts...

    Then tell her it is possible (because it is)...and the way to overcome this possibility is to:
    1. Learn how to shoot
    2. Once you have the basics, learn how to employ the firearm (which is different from just shooting the firearm).....anyone can pick up a hammer and hammer a nail, but that doesn't mean they can build a house
    3. At the same time, work on changing your mindset--one from "the firearm will prevent me from being attacked/will protect me"--where the firearm is carried as a talisman versus a tool. Know that a BG is playing for keeps and you will/may confront someone who isn't afraid at the sight of a gun...you aren't going to scare them away...you may have to put them down to save your life and the life of family members. IMO, this is the hardest thing to change...and takes the longest time to change---and where I believe some people (not just women) have a problem...and where the "reporter" might draw the conclusion
    4. Work on situational awareness...as mentioned in other threads--know what is going on around you--not in a paranoid manner...but being aware of your surroundings. Yes, this does mean not going to places you wouldn't normally go if you weren't armed....but it also means you are aware bad things happen in public during daylight hours
    5. Similarly related to #4--Review "what if" scenarios. It also means discussion--either with like-minded friends...or in respected forums like this one
    6. Not necessarily last, but know the laws of your state and the laws of states you will be visiting....similarly related to #5


    I hope this helps. There have also been cases of "live by compliance, die by compliance"....having a gun, having the mindset/training to use it, and actually employing it has saved lives...
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    I can't help you with statistics, but I'll give my opinion on your wife's other comment of "live by the gun, die by the gun."

    IMO this is a modern variation of Christ's words from Matthew 26 when he told Peter that "all who draw the sword will die by the sword." However, this statement does not pertain to defensive uses of a weapon, but rather to offensive uses of a weapon as were Peter's actions at Gethsemane, actions which immediately preceded and provoked the comment from Christ.

    Regarding Christ's views on carrying weapons, in Luke 22 he commanded his disciples to arm themselves. Not only did he approve of his disciples carrying weapons, he commanded them to do so.

    It was the offensive use of weapons that caused Christ to issue the statement, not the defensive use of weapons. IMO the statement pertains to those who have a lifestyle of using weapons offensively on others, such as we see with career criminals and those who are habitually violent.

    Whether your wife is a Christian or not, she is misusing the phrase and assigning it a meaning that was not present in the original statements.

    In the attorney's situation, the "live by the gun, die by the gun" would refer to the shooter/thief, not the attorney.
    Thanks, Grady. Our family is Catholic. I'll get the trusty old Bible out and refer her to Luke 22.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    There are outrageous statistics everywhere and one must remember that you can make a statistic say anything you like if you control the variables. When people start throwing around statistics I start yawning and I turn my ears off unless it's something as simple as, "There are 100 marbles on this table. 50% of them are red."

    Instead of putting so much energy into proving her wrong, why don't you get her to think a little bit more about it by engaging her in conversation. Asking things like, "That article you read about women getting their guns taken away. Did it give any examples or stories? I'd be interested to read about it," or "I wonder what they are basing their study on? Did it say?"

    In honesty, these are things I'd want to know if I read the article myself and picking apart the article with her may show her there is no real basis for their argument.

    As a woman who carries it is a very scary and real thing to think about a stronger, larger man taking my gun away from me. I won't be arrogant enough to say it couldn't ever happen because I know it could. In practice it has happened and it was a very sobering moment in my training continuum.

    Your wife should know that it can happen and that it is necessary to train for that possibility.

    Then again, that may be something she never wants to happen even in the remotest of possibilities and so to avoid that she decides not to carry and that is her right and should be respected.

    When I first started carrying and my mother found out we had a long talk about why I felt I needed to carry and my mothers fears and worries.

    She flat-out said, "I could not shoot someone. I just couldn't do it. I don't hold anything against anyone who could but I would hesitate and more than likely have the gun taken away from me and probably used on me. I should not be someone who is carrying a gun. I would be much better off with pepper spray or something along those lines."

    It infuriates my Dad that he can't convince her to use a gun and I keep telling him that it's a great thing she knows her own limitations, whether they be physical or mental. She knows what she is capable of and therefore she can amend what she knows to work for her in some way. Even if it doesn't work for her, she is an adult and this is her decision. She will vote for the right to carry. She is perfectly fine with those who carry. She lets up kids and Dad open carry all over her house without a single word but she just won't do it herself.

    Perhaps your wife is like that too. And though you may not like it. Though it may scare you. It's her decision whether she carries or not and working her over about it won't help you or her. Even if she does decide to carry I hope it's not just because you want her to. A gun in the hands of someone who can't or won't use it is worse than no gun at all.

    Now, I really don't know if you are trying to get her to carry or if you are just trying to get her to better accept your carrying. So if it's the latter then disregard the above because it really doesn't apply except that you really can't cram stuff into people's heads. You can present them with the information but that doesn't mean it will change their mind.

    The best thing for her is to see you responsibly carrying.

    There are a lot of guys on this forum who started carrying with their wives against it and after a couple of years of quietly going about their business, one day the wife says, "Do you have it with you?" They say, "Yes," and the wife says, "Good. I feel better with you having it."

    This is because they have seen, not from a new article or some abstract posting but with their own two eye in their own family and home, just how responsible and careful an armed citizen can be.

    Being a good, caring, loving, armed husband is going to go WAY farther than any statistic you might read her.
    Limatunes, very good post and you make some good points. My consternation was with the fact that I thought I had discretely molded her opinion enough that she at least understood my reason for carrying for self defense. She has said in the beginning that she would take her chances without a gun. It is unlikely that I would ever get her to carry, unless something scary happened. Then I'm not even sure. I'm discouraged, but with the good advice I got for you all, I'll press on.

    Thanks!

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    I think Oleg says it better than I can...






    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    of course some people are killed with their own guns...it happens to police officers and civilians...its a fact that wont ever go away...

    but at the same time there are people who carry guns, are trained and prepared to use them if necessary...pointing a gun at someone and hoping they will go away doesnt always solve a problem...if someone is commited to using the gun to stop a threat there is a high probablility they are not the one who is going to be shot....

    dont try to argue that people dont get killed with their own guns...they do...argue that people who are prepared to defend themselves stand a better chance to survive an attack than those who dont...

    people are stabbed with their own kitchen knives also...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    dont try to argue that people dont get killed with their own guns...they do...argue that people who are prepared to defend themselves stand a better chance to survive an attack than those who dont...

    people are stabbed with their own kitchen knives also...
    This is how I feel on the subject as well.

    At least with a gun you have half a chance.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

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