Detroit cuts 20% of police patrols, among other services - Page 2

Detroit cuts 20% of police patrols, among other services

This is a discussion on Detroit cuts 20% of police patrols, among other services within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Detroit, Newark, Chicago, Oakland, Cleveland + numerous others all have had dysfunctional or corrupt politicians for generations....

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Thread: Detroit cuts 20% of police patrols, among other services

  1. #16
    Member Array soonershoote's Avatar
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    Detroit, Newark, Chicago, Oakland, Cleveland + numerous others all have had dysfunctional or corrupt politicians for generations.
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  2. #17
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    Wow! A 20% cut in corruption, that's a real plus.
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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    You're going to see more of this as more states and localities have to face the fact that supporting the current level of services and paying pensions is impossible given falling tax revenue.

    I'll use police as an example but it applies to many public service jobs. I don't know about Detroit but in NY a police officer hired at 22 can retire with a very nice pension package at 42. He can really boost his retirement pay by piling on overtime in the last few years. This officer may well live to 72 years old. When he retires at 42 another officer is hired to replace him. This officer works until he is 42 and retires. Now we have two former officers receiving a very nice benefits package while a third officer is hired to fill the number. At some point you're paying three officers (two retired and one active) to do the job.

    Part of these pensions is paid by money put into the pension plan for the officers. When these pension plans were created an 8% return on investment was calculated toward funding the system. Those pension funds are seriously underfund to the tune of billions of dollars that in some cases calls for taxpayers to make up the difference. The problem is the taxes payers don't have it and states and localities are at the point where they can't borrow to bail themselves out. While you can fire the landscaper making $10/hour there aren't enough of them to make-up for the shortfall required to pay for active police officers and continue funding the retirement plan at its current level, so something has got to give and with respect to Detroit they are letting go police officers.
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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    I guess OCP can't afford to keep Robocop either.

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array GunGeezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigsegv View Post
    I like to rail against politicians as much as the next guy, but is that really why Detroit is in the situation it's in? I don't have any insight on the matter, but I'm curious. I thought it was just a dying city: overwhelmed by loss of industry, and the weather's not great. Can Detroit's problems be traced directly to corrupt politicians?
    While I'll agree Detroit has other problems, you and I don't control fiscal policy, politicians do. You and I don't set tax rate's, politicians do. Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, why do we have inflation and high taxes? You and I don't propose budget's, politicians do. Whenever there is a shortage of money, the first things that are cut are police protection, education, public transportation and health care. Things like welfare and entitlement programs, politicians salaries and benefits and pet projects are sacred cows. If you have any doubt that politicians are responsible for the problems then you are part of the problem.

  6. #21
    Member Array sigsegv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunGeezer View Post
    While I'll agree Detroit has other problems, you and I don't control fiscal policy, politicians do. You and I don't set tax rate's, politicians do. Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, why do we have inflation and high taxes? You and I don't propose budget's, politicians do. Whenever there is a shortage of money, the first things that are cut are police protection, education, public transportation and health care. Things like welfare and entitlement programs, politicians salaries and benefits and pet projects are sacred cows. If you have any doubt that politicians are responsible for the problems then you are part of the problem.
    I'm not getting into a political argument here (is that even allowed on DC?) so I'm going to make one post in this thread and leave it be.

    A few points:
    • You're making unequivocal black-and-white statements about complex issues. Very little in life is that simple, especially situations involving large groups of people.
    • You say "welfare and entitlement programs" as if they are horrible and never cut, and yet public education and health care are good and always cut first. The latter are types of welfare/entitlement programs, just some that are societally accepted. It's a nuanced issue.
    • The "if you don't agree with me you're part of the problem" argument is tired and doesn't lead to healthy discussions.

  7. #22
    Distinguished Member Array GunGeezer's Avatar
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    I guess I'm just old and grumpy, but growing up in Chicago with Da Democratic Daley machine in charge and retiring to Florida where the good ole boys reign supreme has made me extremely callous of the virtues of political efforts. I had a social science professor in college tell me that I would live to see the day when 10% of the people in the U.S. would be working to support the other 90%. I didn't like it then (in the 60's) and I like it even less today. It couldn't be much simpler.

  8. #23
    Member Array sigsegv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunGeezer View Post
    I guess I'm just old and grumpy, but growing up in Chicago with Da Democratic Daley machine in charge and retiring to Florida where the good ole boys reign supreme has made me extremely callous of the virtues of political efforts.
    I wasn't saying politicians didn't play a large part in what happened in detroit, but politicians are always playing large parts in bad things that happen. 20-20 hindsight makes it easy to complain after the fact, but it's impossible to prove a different course of action would have worked better. It would be a different outcome, but with other unintended consequences. Again, I'm not saying that some situations aren't very clear, some are. I think the failure of an entire city is the sort of thing that would require a book to explain, and I was interested to know if there was a short and concise way to blame it all on the city government.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    On one hand there are many complications to this issue but in a very real sense it is a matter of basic economics. The salaries and pensions of public workers can no longer be supported by the individuals and corporations taxed to fund those salaries and pensions. Attempts to increase taxes on individuals and corporations drives the population and corporations out of these areas to places where their productivity is not increasingly penalized.

    With minor complications this is the story of Detroit. It's also the story of NYC with the exception that NYC has the huge financial district that manages to remain in business and continue to support a city that has a similar situation with respect to the cost of public services and pensions. How long NYC can go on like this I don't know.
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  10. #25
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    As I posted in the link...

    'Organized labor, Obama and the left party absolutely love self-destruction! Change they can believe in?
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    'Organized labor, Obama and the left party absolutely love self-destruction! Change they can believe in?
    As someone who help the union negotiate contracts at the company I worked for I can see blame on all sides. Some workers have no problem with taking more than their share. The company on the other hand is out to make a profit. Even if they wanted to they cannot give the workers everything they ask for and remain in business. They can't simply pass on unreasonable costs to their customers or they would lose the customers to those who can control costs better. If unions ask to much they lose their jobs. I have seen it happen a number of times. They are locked out an replaced. Supply and demand in action.

    The government is under no such restrictions. They do not need to make a profit. They can give out anything they wish to a particular voting block of government workers and pass the costs on to the taxpayers. Instead of blaming unions for taking what the politicians give them why not do something about the politicians you elect? When a union contract is up start over. Do what is necessary. If it means you have to cut retirement or wages and benefits so be it. It happens in the private sector all the time. Where did people get the idea that you have to pay what the union demands? Maybe it works that way in government but not in the private sector.

    Michael

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    As someone who help the union negotiate contracts at the company I worked for I can see blame on all sides. Some workers have no problem with taking more than their share. The company on the other hand is out to make a profit. Even if they wanted to they cannot give the workers everything they ask for and remain in business. They can't simply pass on unreasonable costs to their customers or they would lose the customers to those who can control costs better. If unions ask to much they lose their jobs. I have seen it happen a number of times. They are locked out an replaced. Supply and demand in action.

    The government is under no such restrictions. They do not need to make a profit. They can give out anything they wish to a particular voting block of government workers and pass the costs on to the taxpayers. Instead of blaming unions for taking what the politicians give them why not do something about the politicians you elect? When a union contract is up start over. Do what is necessary. If it means you have to cut retirement or wages and benefits so be it. It happens in the private sector all the time. Where did people get the idea that you have to pay what the union demands? Maybe it works that way in government but not in the private sector.

    Michael
    Good points. I think we have reached the point where it no longer works for government either.
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  13. #28
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    Wow, there is a lot of misunderstanding how police/fire or other public employee's pension system works. Here is a tiny clue; only a very small percentage is paid for by tax dollars.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by soonershoote View Post
    Detroit, Newark, Chicago, Oakland, Cleveland + numerous others all have had dysfunctional or corrupt politicians for generations.
    All of the above equals Democrat mayors.

    Although a Democrat, Oakland mayor Ron Dellums actually calls himself a Socialist. And he took over from Jerry Brown, the new Gov of California.

    Any bets on whether California goes further in debt or fixes it's mess?
    -Bark'n
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