Justified shooting

Justified shooting

This is a discussion on Justified shooting within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I am a 65 year old male. At what time will I be justified shooting someone who is beating on me or has struck me? ...

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  1. #1
    New Member Array Sonnyboy's Avatar
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    Unhappy Justified shooting

    I am a 65 year old male. At what time will I be justified shooting someone who is beating on me or has struck me? Do I have to take a beating? Please respond


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    sgb
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    NO you don't have to take a BEATING. Disparity of force would come into play, which basicly is one individual being unable to provide the same amount of force as the opponent due to physical difference,defect or age.


    Florida 776.012
     Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another
    or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
    (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
    However you will have to articulate to the "reasonable Man" standard why you felt the need tor the use of deadly force. Someone slapping you in the face or giving you a shove isn't going to do it.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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    From my understanding of FL laws (my bro-in-law lives & carries there), you don't. As soon as you believe someone intends to cause you serious injury or present lethal force (knife, lead pipe, gun, OR seems to have training in martial arts), you can respond with lethal force.

    AS ALWAYS... read your state laws. Texas is great about posting laws on the state gov website, I believe FL is pretty good too. It is YOUR responsibility to understand all state laws regarding to... well, anything, but esp when it involves defending your home / family / self.

    When it comes down to it... its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Hope that helps.

    J

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    Member Array chefjon's Avatar
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    The sheer number of variables that could go into that make it nearly impossible to give any responsible "Legal" advice. My best advice, especially in FL where I also reside, is to buy this book and to take a good concealed carry class from a well known NRA-certified instructor. Those 2 things should take care of what you need to know to defend yourself. Understand, however, that the law isn't always clear and that aside from the psychological there will be serious legal consequences as well. That said, dealing with cops and court means that you're alive. Your brain is always your best weapon. Good luck!

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    Three words;

    Deadly Force Triangle;;;


    If you were to pick simple "rules of the road" for justified self-defense using lethal force, I'd say it would have to be the principle of the "Deadly Force Triangle," which requires three criteria be met: (A)bility, (O)pportunity and (J)eopardy. This is the standard promoted by the U.S. Federal Bureau Of Investigation, The Lethal Force Institute (Ayoob), and many other organizations.

    The Deadly Force Triangle:
    Ability -- An attacker must posess the power to kill or inflict crippling injury on the innocent;
    Opportunity -- An attacker must be capable of immediately employing that power in an attack. It's a function of many factors, including distance, time, barriers (ie, a door, wall, car between you); and
    Jeopardy -- An attacker must be acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that the attacker had manifest intent to kill or inflict crippling injury.
    In one phrase, essentially, justified use of lethal force requires that the innocent be in immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm.

    If these standards are met, if the use of lethal force is justified, then frankly it doesn't matter whether you use a knife, gun, baseball bat, car, or your bare hands ... lethal force is lethal force. And it wouldn't matter if you shot at the head, heart, pelvis, pinkie finger, or the back ... lethal force is lethal force.

    Of course, that's theory. The reality is, you're on the hook at all times to justify and explain your actions to those around you. I would think you should want to have a set of standards that are generally recognized as close to morally-unassailable as it gets. Because, even if you're completely justified to the highest standard, your actions are going to be scrutinized six ways from Sunday.

    For a simple run-down on the basic principles involved, check out this useful summary put together by the Champaign County [IL] Rifle Assn, page 9, as promoted by LFI; or, the FBI's Law Enforcement Bulletin; or get a copy of Ayoob's book, "In The Gravest Extreme."
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    A difficult question, that in the end will depend on personal knowledge of the laws where you are and personal judgement.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    When it comes down to it... its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
    The pharamacist in Oklahoma, given a year or two, could feel otherwise. Also, remember the homeowner (was it Ohio?) who committed suicide not too long ago after being convicted of shooting a teen on his lawn (or something like that).

    The goal should be "its probably better to be favorably judged by 12 than carried by 6."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    The pharamacist in Oklahoma, given a year or two, could feel otherwise. Also, remember the homeowner (was it Ohio?) who committed suicide not too long ago after being convicted of shooting a teen on his lawn (or something like that).

    The goal should be "its probably better to be favorably judged by 12 than carried by 6."
    I would think a favorable judgement would be assumed. Unfortunate for those few who arent when protecting themselves.

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    A big +1 for the advice to buy Jon Gutmacher's book. Everything you ever wanted to know about Florida firearm laws.

    Matt
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    Florida Use of Deadly Force

    http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/wea...f_defense.html


    Florida State Statute

    Title XLVI
    CRIMES
    Chapter 784
    ASSAULT; BATTERY; CULPABLE NEGLIGENCE
    View Entire Chapter
    784.08 Assault or battery on persons 65 years of age or older; reclassification of offenses; minimum sentence.—
    (1) A person who is convicted of an aggravated assault or aggravated battery upon a person 65 years of age or older shall be sentenced to a minimum term of imprisonment of 3 years and fined not more than $10,000 and shall also be ordered by the sentencing judge to make restitution to the victim of such offense and to perform up to 500 hours of community service work. Restitution and community service work shall be in addition to any fine or sentence which may be imposed and shall not be in lieu thereof.
    (2) Whenever a person is charged with committing an assault or aggravated assault or a battery or aggravated battery upon a person 65 years of age or older, regardless of whether he or she knows or has reason to know the age of the victim, the offense for which the person is charged shall be reclassified as follows:
    (a) In the case of aggravated battery, from a felony of the second degree to a felony of the first degree.
    (b) In the case of aggravated assault, from a felony of the third degree to a felony of the second degree.
    (c) In the case of battery, from a misdemeanor of the first degree to a felony of the third degree.
    (d) In the case of assault, from a misdemeanor of the second degree to a misdemeanor of the first degree.
    (3) Notwithstanding the provisions of s. 948.01, adjudication of guilt or imposition of sentence shall not be suspended, deferred, or withheld.
    History.—s. 1, ch. 89-327; s. 1, ch. 92-50; s. 18, ch. 93-406; s. 1200, ch. 97-102; s. 19, ch. 97-194; s. 5, ch. 99-188; s. 1, ch. 2002-208.
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  11. #11
    sgb
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    A big +1 for the advice to buy Jon Gutmacher's book. Everything you ever wanted to know about Florida firearm laws.

    Matt
    Screw Gutmacher and his anti open carry mentality. just my .02
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  12. #12
    Member Array SAR in FL's Avatar
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    It's been said before and I'll say it again...

    WHEN TO USE DEADLY FORCE

    Drill this into your head... When there is an immediate, and otherwise unavoidable threat of death, or crippling injury to yourself or another innocent person!

    Dissect and understand each and every word in that statement. Each word in that phrase has literal meaning to it. Learn it, know it, live it.

    The two words, "otherwise unavoidable" are just as important as the rest. Live by that phrase and employ lethal force only when that situation presents itself and you'll generally be okay in all 50 states.
    Best regards,
    Steve
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    I'm an old man...don't pick a fight with an old man...he's too old to fight, so he will just kill ya'.
    Here in the South there is a self-defense statement that is sometimes use in court, "I shot him because he needed shootin' "

    In all seriousness, I don't fight, pick fights, nor go to places where people like to fight. I do not drink in public, nor go to places where people do drink in public. I'm always in during the evenings, not roaming town.
    Anyone looking for problems is encouraged to stay away from me in parking lots and others places I travel.
    I'll not be placed into a position where I have to worry about disparity of force, I'm already to old to be 'equals' with the younger dirtbags looking for an easy mark.
    My head is always on a swivel, and I will defend myself as necessary...quickly and violently...let the pieces fall where they may.OMOYMV

    Maybe someday, I'll tell you all how I really feel.
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    Since I'm not a lawyer and I'm not licensed to practice law in Florida, take my advices for what it is worth. If you in fear of your life and can articulate that fear to the DA and a jury if it goes to trial you should prevail.

    Before it comes to that point in time, I would suggest you find someplace to obtain training in the laws of Florida on self defense. If you don't have a carry permit take a class and ask questions about this topic. If you already have a permit, I would suggest you take a refresher course and ask the questions.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    While the training and study is good advice, it goes beyond that. The line between taking a couple hits to GBI or worse can be as thin as a hair and passed in a split second for anyone and in particular the elderly or infirm. In the end, its going to be a judgement call.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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