Turned out to be nothing, but drew entering my house after getting a call.

This is a discussion on Turned out to be nothing, but drew entering my house after getting a call. within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Guantes Thanks. The circumstances were the result of being a cop. It's a shame that trying to make a difference in a ...

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Thread: Turned out to be nothing, but drew entering my house after getting a call.

  1. #16
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Thanks. The circumstances were the result of being a cop.
    It's a shame that trying to make a difference in a community often results in that situation. Glad you're in a better situation now- stay safe.
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

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  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    No formal training. It's not rocket science though. I know how to navigate corners, doors, stairwells, choke points.
    I don't have any formal training in clearing out a room either so I'm not one to give pointers on how to do so, etc. When I read this comment, however, the first thought that came to my mind is; you don't know what you don't know. I do believe that its a bit presumptuous for you to think you know all there is to know about something when you've had no formal training in it. Like others have said, LEO & military receive training in doing this kind of thing. If there was nothing to it, they wouldn't waste their time training for it and continue onto something else that would be more beneficial instead.

    I'm not trying to rag on you, just possibly give you a perspective to consider.

    I agree that we have to use common sense & that every situation may not call for you dialing 911 everytime something goes bump in the night. The truth of the matter is if you did call everytime the least little thing happened, they wouldn't take you seriously when something was really happening and you really needed them.

    I wasn't there to assess the driving so I'm trusting your discretion on this one. I'm also sure, however, that you're well aware of what would've happened if you were pulled over in that circumstance. If you were pulled over for driving in a manner that may not have been legal, for example, I doubt that LEO would be very forgiving with your explanation; your speeding home to investigate a possible break in. They would probably want to know why you didn't call the police.

    This leads to what would've happened if someone was in the house. Did you stop to think what you would tell police if you had to shoot someone in your house? In that situation, they would also ask, why didn't you call them? I'm just trying to consider different scenarios here. If something had happened, a lawyer could possibly paint you as being irresponsible by going in to clear a house with no formal training and then throw an additional charge of negligence per you not calling police. I'm sure they would say that if there was enough of a threat for you to enter your house with your gun drawn, it was enough of a threat to call the police.

    I can't remember which thread it was on but someone at sometime said that if you think there is enough of a threat to draw your gun then its enough of a threat to call 911. To me, this sounds like good logic. I realize we have to protect ourselves as well as our property (when appropriate) but we aslo have to protect ourselves legally. Unfortunately its the lawyers that gets us instead of the BGs. In the end, we wind up being the victim in spite of our efforts to protect ourselves and property from BGs. This situation has given you a lot of things to consider so if anything like this happens again in the future (I hope it doesn't) then perhaps you'll be better prepared to handle the multitude of potential problems that bad situations contain.

    I'm glad all worked out well for you.

    Grace & Peace,
    DCG

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    I don't have a huge problem with clearing your own home in a low risk situation like this, however, at least do it somewhat cautious and methodically. LEO can't and shouldn't be called every time the wind blows, some degree of self sufficiency is a good thing.
    Same here. It's really a judgement call, and it has to factor in a whole bunch of things that are hard to quantify, but in the aggregate if you want to clear your house and are comfortable doing that, and you perceive the threat picture to be low, then clear the house. It's partly why we arm and train - so we can protect our property.

    In discussions like this, sometimes I try to imagine what a person back in, say, the 1920s would have thought about a person today who calls the cops because they saw a shadow and I think our ancestors would judge us collectively as a bunch of pants-wetting pansies.

    On the other hand, pros who practice house clearing, like with airsoft scenarios and the like, report that the solo clearing guy usually gets nailed. The collective wisdom on this is that you probably do want to call in backup if you are pretty sure that there is indeed a serious threat to deal with.
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  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    On the other hand, pros who practice house clearing, like with airsoft scenarios and the like, report that the solo clearing guy usually gets nailed. The collective wisdom on this is that you probably do want to call in backup if you are pretty sure that there is indeed a serious threat to deal with.
    I thought about this too but if he's going to call for back up (I thought to myself) then why not go on and call the police?

    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    In discussions like this, sometimes I try to imagine what a person back in, say, the 1920s would have thought about a person today who calls the cops because they saw a shadow and I think our ancestors would judge us collectively as a bunch of pants-wetting pansies.
    IMO this isn't an accurate assessment. We're not living in the 1920s. We're living in the present in sue happy USA where everyone and his brother sues you if they spill a hot cup of coffee on themselves.

    I'm thinking that there's a threat even if he's the victor in clearing out his own house where he has to shoot a BG to protect himself and his property; most notably the BGs or State's lawyer that will come after him if he didn't cross every "T" and dot every "i" in the actions that lead up to him shooting said BG.
    Last edited by SIXTO; July 13th, 2011 at 09:34 PM. Reason: use multi quotes

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    IMO this isn't an accurate assessment. We're not living in the 1920s. We're living in the present in sue happy USA where everyone and his brother sues you if they spill a hot cup of coffee on themselves.

    I'm thinking that there's a threat even if he's the victor in clearing out his own house where he has to shoot a BG to protect himself and his property; most notably the BGs or State's lawyer that will come after him if he didn't cross every "T" and dot every "i" in the actions that lead up to him shooting said BG.
    I think that this is to a large extent dependent on ones location and the political/gun/SD climate of that location.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I think that this is to a large extent dependent on ones location and the political/gun/SD climate of that location.
    I won't argue with that. If I adopt that stance, however, I'm not confident what locations I would have to be in where those previously mentioned dangers will no longer be a factor. Texas seems to be pretty pro-guns/property owner's rights so it might not be a concern in that state. I'm not sure where I would stand here in KY though. There's a lot of rural parts of this state but at the same time Lexington does its very best to imitate larger more liberal areas like NY.

    I realize we have to take this stuff with a grain of salt b/c if we become too scared to act, then we might as well not even carry.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    I'm glad you are able to post this account.


    I'm sad that you don't realize how easy it could have been your sister posting on a support site about seeing her older brother killed in an armed home burglary gone bad.


    As said earlier, if it warranted you drawing a firearm, it warranted calling 911 and waiting. With no immediate threat to life what's the rush?
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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    I'm glad you are able to post this account.


    I'm sad that you don't realize how easy it could have been your sister posting on a support site about seeing her older brother killed in an armed home burglary gone bad.


    As said earlier, if it warranted you drawing a firearm, it warranted calling 911 and waiting. With no immediate threat to life what's the rush?
    I don't know about that. You don't really know what is going on and therefore being prepared for the worst while actually anticipating no problem isn't wrong. It falls in the "fire-extinguisher" category. You have a tool ready in case your judgment that "probably" there is no one in there is wrong. It is adherence to the old Boy Scout motto.

    Being prepared for the worst is perfectly O.K.

    Now, that is very different from actually going in with full knowledge that someone is in there, or that it is highly likely that someone is in there. That is just plain foolish unless it is your job.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  10. #24
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    I am glad that it ended well, but IMO you made a big mistake going into the house instead of calling 911. The limit between courage and recklessness can be very thin sometimes.


    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    ...
    I'm sad that you don't realize how easy it could have been your sister posting on a support site about seeing her older brother killed in an armed home burglary gone bad.
    ...
    I think the same way.
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

  11. #25
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    IMO this isn't an accurate assessment. We're not living in the 1920s. We're living in the present in sue happy USA where everyone and his brother sues you if they spill a hot cup of coffee on themselves.

    I'm thinking that there's a threat even if he's the victor in clearing out his own house where he has to shoot a BG to protect himself and his property; most notably the BGs or State's lawyer that will come after him if he didn't cross every "T" and dot every "i" in the actions that lead up to him shooting said BG.
    Luckily MI has Castle Law, which would protect me from civil suits, but I wouldn't have fired unless absolutely necessary. An unarmed intruder would not be the recipient of any lead from me. (gotta get those beanbag rounds...:))

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I don't know about that. You don't really know what is going on and therefore being prepared for the worst while actually anticipating no problem isn't wrong. It falls in the "fire-extinguisher" category. You have a tool ready in case your judgment that "probably" there is no one in there is wrong. It is adherence to the old Boy Scout motto.

    Being prepared for the worst is perfectly O.K.

    Now, that is very different from actually going in with full knowledge that someone is in there, or that it is highly likely that someone is in there. That is just plain foolish unless it is your job.
    Exactly, that was my mindset. Being on my own property I didn't have to worry about a brandishing charge...I doubted there was someone inside but might as well have the gun in my hands just in case.
    It wasn't a "there's someone there who I'm going to have to shoot, better draw my weapon" situation at all. It was just being prepared.
    I generally agree that you should call 911 if the situation warrants drawing your weapon...I just think this situation was a little different. A little less serious, but having a chambered firearm in my hands definitely eased my nerves a bit...
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I don't know about that. You don't really know what is going on and therefore being prepared for the worst while actually anticipating no problem isn't wrong. It falls in the "fire-extinguisher" category. You have a tool ready in case your judgment that "probably" there is no one in there is wrong. It is adherence to the old Boy Scout motto.

    Being prepared for the worst is perfectly O.K.

    Now, that is very different from actually going in with full knowledge that someone is in there, or that it is highly likely that someone is in there. That is just plain foolish unless it is your job.
    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    I got a call from my younger sister, who had just returned home to an empty house from summer school. She said that as she pulled in the driveway with her bike, she saw our rear window shade being lowered.
    I believe that I'd error on the side of safety if a family member said they saw movement in the house. Wouldn't that fall under the "likely someone is in the house"? I'll say it again, if there is no threat to life why rush in?
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  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    Exactly, that was my mindset. Being on my own property I didn't have to worry about a brandishing charge...
    If you're drawn on an unarmed man in your home, I'm not sure if Castle Law would negate a brandishing charge or not. You could be right...I don't know... I'm not sure if KY has Castle Law or not but I was surprised to find out that you're not allowed to carry conceal (in KY) in your own house if you do not have a CCDW license. I'm not saying your wrong but if you don't know the exact portion or section of the law to support your argument, you might not want to assume you have that right. What appears to be just and what is actually legal are sometimes two different things.

    I'm also thinking that something that is different about this situation is that you didn't start out in your house and were forced to defend it, you started outside of the house and had to enter in under the belief that there could be a threat. It's not a typical home defense situation.

  14. #28
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    If you're drawn on an unarmed man in your home, I'm not sure if Castle Law would negate a brandishing charge or not. You could be right...I don't know... I'm not sure if KY has Castle Law or not but I was surprised to find out that you're not allowed to carry conceal (in KY) in your own house if you do not have a CCDW license. I'm not saying your wrong but if you don't know the exact portion or section of the law to support your argument, you might not want to assume you have that right. What appears to be just and what is actually legal are sometimes two different things.

    I'm also thinking that something that is different about this situation is that you didn't start out in your house and were forced to defend it, you started outside of the house and had to enter in under the belief that there could be a threat. It's not a typical home defense situation.
    I'm pretty sure that I'd be able to hold an unarmed burglar at gunpoint / perform citizens arrest. In MI, at least
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  15. #29
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    Gee, I just go room to room, send in my dogs... and tell them the word for "find them"..... watch and wait.
    They can and will search a room more thoroughly than I could. One in particular is trained to find people, so that helps.

    Good to be cautious , if in doubt.
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  16. #30
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    Being that I have 2 Labs (& 2 cats, 2 birds), not seeing any obvious signs of B&E would lead me to first find out if the dogs are still in the house. That can be achieved by knocking on the front window...wild barking & a whiskered muzzle or two heading for the window would be a good sign. I'd likely attempt to clear the house myself at that point.

    I'd reeeally hate for an officer to shoot my dogs!

    To any of the LEO's/former LEO's in the room - do you feel that a responding LEO would feel it prudent to somehow let me get my dogs out of the house before they start clearing it? The dogs would not take kindly to a stranger stomping through the house!
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

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