August 28th, 2011 09:32 PM
Again, I disagree with you. Forget castle doctrine. I go in the house and confront a burglar (felon). I am not creating the threat, it is the burglar that "may" create the threat. In which case I can respond as necessary.
Originally Posted by Ramblinman
Again, I am not creating the threat, the BG may if he so chooses.
Think of it this way, if no one was in the house was anyones life in direct danger? No, but your property might. How could you justify(under the law that is) that your life is in danger when a BG is in your house and no one is home? You are creating the danger by entering when knowing a BG is there!
The points you are stating are relative to mutual combat, not stopping criminal activity.
All self defense laws state that if you create or are responsible for creating the conflict that led to lethal force being used against you, using lethal force is usually not justifiable. You cannot go looking for a fight unless someones life is in imminent danger!
True, unless he presents a threat sufficient to justify lethal force.
For example, if you see someone breaking into your garage at night (assuming it's not attached to your house) you cannot go running out the door with a gun, confront the intruder, and then decide to shoot in self defense!
I am one (retired).
I advise you to talk to a LEO about the above example.
You keep talking about castle doctrine, I am talking about the use of lethal force to confront a threat sufficient to justify it, that was presented during criminal activity.
Many feel that castle doctrine is simple in that if there is a BG in your home you have the right to shoot under any condition and this simply is not true. The devil is in the details. Castle doctrine is defensive in nature. If you know someone is already in your house and you are not there, to go in with the purpose if confronting and possibly shooting him is offensive in nature. The only thing that is threatened in this example is the property, not any persons. If the state allows for lethal force to protect property then by all means go ahead and take on the burglar with a gun. But if the state only allows defense of people, then good luck purposely going into the home with the intent of confronting and possibly shooting the BG since no ones safety or life was at stake.
So you say.
This is an instance where the cops and the DA would say you should have called them, as they lock your cell door and throw away the keys for 10 to 20.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
August 29th, 2011 05:03 PM
I think what Ramblinman isn't getting is that Castle doctrine laws allow you to defend your "property" and assume that a BG that is breaking into your home is doing so to HARM you!. They do not cause your to give up you right to SD. CD laws give you added protection as the "legal" homeowner.
Even in states without CD laws, most SD laws stipulate that if you are in a place you are "LEGALLY" permitted to be (In this case your own home), doing what you are legally allowed to do, you have a right to defend yourself from a personal attack. Now, in some states (without CD) you may have the duty to "TRY" a retreat before you resort to lethal force. As far as I know, NO state forbids you as a home owner from asking someone to leave their home.
However, in the case of CD laws, they protect a homeowner from prosocution should the BG not leave and a homeowner is forced to MAKE them leave by whatever means necessary.
As I understand it, in states where there are NO CD provisions in the law, it is still legal for you to ask a tresspasser to leave, but, you cannot physically force a BG to leave. However, if you as a "LEGAL" homeowner arrive and find a BG in your home, you are still within your rights to ask them to leave. But, if they refuse, you need to retreat and call an LEO.
However, even if you live in a state that doesn't have CD laws, you still have the RIGHT to defend yourself if a BG doesn't leave when asked; but instead, goes on the attack.
The main difference (as I understand it) in states without CD laws, it becomes the "BURDEN" of the homeowner to prove he had the right to use lethal force.
CD laws do away with all this namby pamby bs; and allow a LEGAL homeowner the RIGHT to physically force a BG to leave. They also protect the homeowner from legal prosocution should a BG choose to fight. This is because:
CD laws "assume" that a BADGUY is a BADGUY!
The CD law in SC assumes that if a BG breaks into you home, he does so in order to HARM you or your family. (It is no longer the burden of the homeowner to prove justification!)
This gives the UNTRAINED, but "LEGAL" homeowner protection from trying to determine a BG's motive. The burden now shifts where it needs to be; on the BADGUY. It is up to him to prove he had the "right" to be in your home and wasn't there to harm you or commit any crime.
Please note: I am not an attorney and have NEVER been an attorney. So take my post for what it's worth. (.o2c)
September 5th, 2011 05:52 PM
Good Dog! Did he get a nice treat?
Originally Posted by claude clay
September 6th, 2011 12:35 AM
I see no problem with clearing my own house. Think of it this way, who know your house better than you do? One note I would like to add if you do decide to clear your own home, I wouldn't stop to grab a different weapon for hd. When we are trained for room clearing we go in quick. There are no pauses or pit stops on the way. I would have cleared my entire house before I stopped for anything. I don't want anyone to surprise me. Also another thought before you do clear your house are you actually sure that your other half didn't come home from work early. In a situation on this order the adrenaline is rushing you need to calm yourself as much as possible. Obviously your going to be nervous and have that adrenaline pumping but you need to be thinking about what your doing as your doing it. Checking for forced entry as you did does mean that you were thinking so thats good. One last comment on clearing your own house would have to be why not have a plan. Actually walk how you would do it and after you finished try to find something that you did wrong critisize yourself. My life wont depend on you clearing my house but yours may might as well have a well thought out plan. Also Wisconsin does not have a cd law, but we do not have to retreat. If we tell them to leave and they wont and continue on I would see that as a direct threat to my life. Way I look at it if they won't leave after you asked them they are holding you against your will in your own home.
September 6th, 2011 02:09 AM
Call 911 and stay outside watching the back window. My $.02
September 7th, 2011 01:42 PM
Even with training clearing a house can be a nightmare. Doing it alone,having had some of my expereinces,seems a bit foolish but I can understand that you wouldn't want to call the police when you haven't seen or heard anything to make you think there is a threat. I only have a couple of pieces of advice for you having been in a couple of similar situations: be aware that a grown man can fit themselves into places you'd never think of looking,for instance under the kitchen sink(true story) and secondly if you've entered and it seems nothing is out of place,you don't see or hear anything unusual and you decide to proceed I would recommend you stay away from the long gun. While a 12ga will get the job done quicker it is also gives an intruder on the defense a lot more to grab onto then a pistol. Leave the long gun for the static defensive situations.
September 7th, 2011 02:00 PM
i wasnt there but from what you said i think it should of been a call to 911 by your sis. you dont know if someone is inside or not but you do know that the gun is inside, someone could have had that. personally i would rather the professionals who are trained clear the house. glad it was a false alarm though.
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