September 8th, 2011 10:27 PM
Somebody throw him a bone so he will lay down. If you just want someone to agree with you, I'll hit the like button on your post. But first lets get something straight; calling people bloodthirsty, stupid, and foolhardy because they have a different opinion of the matter is about as ignorant as it gets.
Originally Posted by BadgerJ
Ok, we get it. You would rather have your wife who is all alone with your children out in the middle of nowhere, run out to the vehicle with a camera like a tourist in a Mary Poppins movie and greet somone acting strange. Maybe, have a photo session, and invite them in for a cup of tea.
Two devices are not better than one. I dont even know where that comes from. Do you really want your wife in a situation were she obviously feels distressed to have to worry about a camera and a gun? Sorry, no cookie for you.
Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.
September 8th, 2011 10:39 PM
Could be that if she snapped his picture he would become violet and try and take the camera. If he is a criminal the last thing he'd want is a photo session. That may have pushed him into something he wasn't even planning. Now i admit that a picture of the van - and a zoom of his face before going outside would have been nice but when you are alarmed and have your children there - well, my first thought would be get between him and them.
Let's not judge this mother of two, too harshly. She did alright - no one was hurt - the threat left ---immediately and all was good. I bet she can identify him if need be.
Great privilege comes with great responsibility.
September 8th, 2011 11:27 PM
ktm rider, you've GOT to let me come hunt that pond you have! I bet it is ATE UP with ducks!!
Originally Posted by ktm rider
”A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them..."
September 8th, 2011 11:42 PM
SOUNDS TO ME LIKE SHE DONE GOOD!!!
As for confronting a trespasser while armed....Well one thing I like about Missouri is our trespass laws;
A} Going past a "No Trespassing" sign or purple paint on trees or fence posts is Criminal Trespass in the First Degree, a class A misdemeanor
B} Castle Doctrine extends to the property line and we are expressly permitted to confront trespassers while armed
September 9th, 2011 08:25 AM
No, I'm saying the courts decide if he was innocent of a crime which would justify shooting him.
Originally Posted by Guns and more
This is possibly true. He had to turn the car/van around to leave though.
2. I don't know what state this was but all states don't have front plates. The OP stated the van stopped in front of the garage, so how were you going to photograph the plates from inside?
In this case, video or photographic evidence would have been essential in preventing a future occurrence, and yes, a pic would be good if he killed her. But, again, I'm not saying put the gun away and confront with a camera. I'm saying get video, with gun at the ready, mag checked, racked and within reach/holstered. By holding a HG in your hand you are essentially tying up one arm. I like to fight with both hands (though you can use the gun as a club in the close combat zone)
3. Let's say he wanted to do harm. I guess a nice picture of the killer (after the fact) would help the police, but not the victim.
Never show your gun, except to put lead downrange. My opinion.
4. She did not show the gun until he moved towards her, why would he do that if he was lost? I'd say, "Oh, sorry, and be on my way. Actually if I was lost, I wouldn't get out of the car." How do you explain that he drove past 4 "No Trespassing " signs?
Huh? If he tried to breach the door, I'd be shooting through the door if I was a female at home with two children. If I missed, I'd still have prior video out the window.
5. Do you really want to wait until the guy is inside your home before you say anything.
Right, it takes a while, but if you say 'shots fired' it might be shorter time for a response. Good that she had the HG - in fact, essential.
6. This was way in the country, cops not going to save anyone.
You're begging the point. You don't know her.
7. She did not aim at him. People in the country know how do handle themselves.
I always have a camera and I don't walk through bad neighborhoods. I have a Nikon digital on my belt at all times. Part of my gear. It comes out first, HG is on the hip, and partner is also carrying and is ready to back me up.
She did good.
He was up to no good.
When you walk through a bad neighborhood, do you bring a camera?
Good reply, hope my responses were informative.
September 9th, 2011 09:18 AM
I think they are weird.
I have never gone out to a visitor to take a picture of his vehicle or of him. It would be the last thing on my mind.
I have walked out to strange vehicles many times. It is just a fact of life that I don't know everyone in this world.
And when you live in the country you get occasional visits from the grandson or son or some relative to the old family two miles down the road, descendants who you last saw when they were small children...or something similar.
One does not make any friends running out the door with guns and cameras to confront the neighbor's children when that child or by now grown man only wants to ask you if he can hunt deer on the place this winter. Or maybe he wants to borrow a hay wagon....
So you go out to see who it is. The first indication you really have that things are not just right is when he behaves a little off.
In her case, it was the fact that he said he was lost. That is OK. I have been lost many times. But where he failed was.....when you are lost, the next words out of your mouth are questions: How do I get to Billy Jones farm? How do I get to highway 202?
The next bad move was when he moved toward her and ignored her instructions to keep his distance.
That was a really really bad signal. Any man who advances toward a woman when instructed to keep his distance is a serious threat.
These are the earliest signs of a threat and this is where your picture taking would begin because up until then you would have no reason for doing so.
At this stage, it would be very foolish to divide your attention between a camera and the BG because by this time it is clear that he is a BG.
If she had a camera on her and chose to take a photo of the rear of the van as it was going out her road, OK. But not in the middle of a confrontation.
Further, as someone said earlier, he probably would have lunged at her to grab the camera and at that point she would have been in real trouble with the gun holstered or otherwise not at instant ready.
You mention cameras on your belt, armed backups, etc.....perhaps it is time to describe your profession and some of your real life experiences of survival in the briers.
September 9th, 2011 09:38 AM
By the way, this may be a good time to discuss proper manners when approaching people you do not know, especially in the country and now that hunting season has begun.
Do NOT invade a person's private space. Stand at a minimum of 6 to 10 ft. away while talking to them. If it is a woman the distance should be double that unless you are well known in the neighborhood and can identify yourself....as in " my name is xxxxx" and it is well known that you own land nearby. Or "My name is xxx and I just bought the Jones farm and I would like to ask you....."
In the latter example, you have identified yourself but you still have not demonstrated character so you should still be respectful of personal space.
I despise strangers that stand at bad breath distance. It is very dangerous.
If you must go up to the door and knock, knock or ring the bell and step back off the porch or steps a respectful distance. You must not stand with your nose right up against the door when the door opens. In my younger days in some of the more remote areas that was a good way to get shot.
Just remember the #1 rule and the rest is easy. DO NOT invade anyone's personal space.
That was the real danger signal in the OP's original post. The BG was starting to crowd her.
September 9th, 2011 10:54 AM
A digital Nikon and a partner to back her up were not available to the missus.
She had, as backup, two kids with a phone... not a great idea, but it all worked out.
As to never showing a weapon except to put lead downrange... Well, she wasn't on the range, so it never should have come out. She just shoulda said "smile for the birdie" and taken his pic.
Never showing the weapon until ready to use it might be a better axiom. After all, I believe John Lott's work shows that a shown weapon has deterred many crimes, as it did in this case.
I'll agree that the courts might decide if the van driver was guilty of a crime that would justify his being shot. In many jurisdictions a woman has an almost automatic "disparity of force" claim when the perpetrator is male. Add to that:
- the man in the van was on her property.
- did not leave when asked.
- advanced on the missus after being asked to leave.
My wager is that: If arrested for this "horrible armed assault," the woman would be:
- Released on her own recognizance.
- Not prosecuted.
- and if it went so far... a No Bill from the Grand Jury
In a state without front plates (not the case this time), the van would have to turn around to leave as you say. I have a question for you... (multiple choice, easy peasy)
What will NOT cause the van to turn around to leave..?
- The digital Nikon in hand.
- The successful culmination of a burglary, rape, and murder of 2 children and the wife?
- A weapon displayed with the obvious intent to use it.
The goal here is to get the bad man/stranger danger to leave with no harm done...
I notice that the local Sheriff apparently hasn't made a visit to the house on a complaint from some innocent lost soul who reported an assault with a weapon. So apparently, the bad man wasn't just lost and really bothered that the locals are so unmannerly.
Yeah, it takes a while in the country to get response... even with the "shots fired" call... And then, with that call, you may wait even LONGER because the Sheriff's gonna assemble a team... And then they're going to advance on the place slowly and tactically... So 1/2 hour response time is now 45 minutes minimum.
And if the "shots fired" call isn't made, what's she s'posed to do, run around the grounds taking multiple photos of the guy chasing her around the house? After all, she can't pull the weapon 'til she's gonna send lead downrange... and she didn't make "that" call.
Nope, sorry.... Iff'n my wife had shot him on the property, and I lived that far out in the sticks... Id'a debated whether to bother the sheriff at all... just bury the fool and use the van as a storage shed.
I'm sorry, that last bit was the egotistic, foolhardy, testosterone poisoned, stupid, noob talking... I'm not really that way at all... I've just been hanging around here on DC too long.
It could be worse!
September 9th, 2011 11:42 AM
I might have missed it, but did anyone mention the use of a video security system for getting the "big picture"? That leaves the homeowner free to focus on the situation and keep the pistol in her hand. I think its a good idea for all homes but especially for a home as isolated as this.
September 9th, 2011 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by ep1953
Glad you brought this up. We did install a video system after this happened. We discussed it before this incident and this made us put it on the fast track.
And to clear a few other questions up. My wife handles a firearm very well. She has grown up shooting and hunting with her dad and is comfortable with a handgun as well.
It is just a common practice of the locals who live back in the sticks around here to go out and greet visitors. It is just what we do. Wifey looked out the window, noticed it was someone she didn't know and could see it was a single male in the van. That is why she told the girls to watch out the window with the phone. She has done this before (and takes her gun with her) only to find it is someone looking for the next farm over. No big deal usually.
Law enforcement in this area is spread very thin. Calling them to intervene is a waste of time. They are simply too far away to be of any use when you really need them.
You can come up and give the duck hunting a try.. I do see them occassionally on the pond. I have to other ponds that have ducks on them also. I am more into hunting the deer up here than the ducks.
September 9th, 2011 12:45 PM
She did just fine. She got the best possible outcome to the situation. I am completely against this picture taking rouse.
Eyes and FULL attention on threat, hand on weapon. A camera is an unneeded distraction.
Best case-he leaves, no picture needed.
Worst case-she has to shoot him, no picture needed.
No pictures needed, if someone wants a souvenir that bad, take him to the taxidermist, and hang him above the fireplace.
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it".
September 9th, 2011 01:21 PM
The only thing I can find on this is from the NRA/ILA.
Apparently and according to this source, in Maryland brandishing doesn't exist on ones own property.
MCSM: Maryland Firearm Laws
It is unlawful for any person without a permit to wear or carry a handgun, openly or concealed, upon or about his person, or to knowingly transport a handgun in any vehicle traveling on public roads, highways, waterways or airways or upon roads or parking lots generally used by the public. This does not apply to any person wearing, carrying or transporting a handgun within the confines of real estate owned or leased by him, or on which he resided, or within the confines of a business establishment owned or leased by him.
I think the key is what she tells him. If she holds the gun in the open and tells him to leave, it shouldn't be a problem. However, if she holds the gun and says leave or I'll blow your brains out or points it at him without a reasonable threat, that could be a problem and some form of assault.
Of course when there are no witnesses and it's her word against his, better to err on the side of letting somebody know you can defend yourself. And in that case, caution dictates that without the weapon she and the kids are at the mercy of almost any man of any stature whatsoever. I suspect no DA or solicitor in his right mind would indict a woman in such a situation. Especially one that is otherwise law abiding and on her own property alone.
Last edited by ITW; September 9th, 2011 at 05:54 PM.
September 9th, 2011 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by BadgerJ
Whats her main objective? To stay alive and keep her kids safe! Did she accomplish this? Yes. To say that her actions were dumb, blood thirsty, or what not is out of line. I bet she was worried, scared, confused and acted as she saw fit for the situation and it worked. Good job to her. She learned and everyone is safe thats whats important. Yes we would all love to hear she turned in a license plate number and some scum bag had a warrant out and was arrested. I agree she should stay inside and bet that will be her plan next time. She and the kids are safe thats the number one priority and outcome we hope for.
September 9th, 2011 06:49 PM
Pretty much exactly how I saw the situation. When I lived in the country we had 60 acres. While all the other neighbors houses sat pretty close to the road with rather short driveways (75-100 feet), ours sat on top of a hill about 150 yards from the road with a long winding driveway. We definitely had the high ground and were more remote than the other neighbors.
Originally Posted by ktm rider
We certainly didn't get many unannounced visitors because our driveway was so long and we sat so far off the road, but it did happen from time to time. We always went out to greet them and see what they wanted when it happened. And we were always armed. Concealed, but armed. And never had a damn camera to take pictures of license plates.
Thankfully, neither I, nor my wife had any experiences similar to the one your wife had, but I know my wife would have handled it probably the exact same way. Except we didn't have any kids. When I was at work, my wife was home alone with a few dogs.
But I always made sure she was adequately armed. Shotgun, AR-15, and a choice of pistols in a variety of calibers as well as several other long arms. And since I had my own 200 yard shooting range, all the neighbors knew we were well armed because we shot a lot. Usually at least 200 - 300 rounds at a time.
Unfortunately, due to my job, we moved to the town in which I work now, and live within the city limits. Although still a very rural community, I do miss my personal shooting range just outside my door.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
September 9th, 2011 07:59 PM
I think she did everything right, considering where you live. You say you live out in the sticks--I don't know about MD, but in my part of KS, a call to 911 generally means an hour wait or so, and that is if they stand on the gas pedal awful hard getting there. Plus, if everyone called everytime a "strange" vehicle pulled into the yard, it would turn into a boy who cried wolf type of thing, and they would never show up anyway. Lots of salesmen, oil lease guys, hunters, etc. always showing up.
She did exactly what I would have done. She deserves a big thank you, for protecting her/your children, she did her job as a mom very well. I think you definately have a "keeper"!!
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