Bedside Gun with Infants, Toddlers and Small Kids

This is a discussion on Bedside Gun with Infants, Toddlers and Small Kids within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Get another dog. I'm not saying replace the beloved one you have, but get one that will make noise. And put your gun in a ...

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Thread: Bedside Gun with Infants, Toddlers and Small Kids

  1. #46
    Member Array Zepoll's Avatar
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    Get another dog. I'm not saying replace the beloved one you have, but get one that will make noise. And put your gun in a gunvault (or other quickly accessed) safe.

    You can "What If" yourself to death on this subject. If you hear someone knocking around the garbage cans and break a window, then you have all the time in the world to get out of bed, unlock, load magazine, rack slide, take a whiz, make some breakfast and then shoot the bad guy.

    But what if you wake up to the feeling of the barrel of a gun to the back of your head? Then you've go no time to do anything, so having a loaded pistol under your pillow doesn't help either.

    Bottom line is.. you have no idea how much time you'll have to "prepare" for your encounter.

    You can teach your kids all you want, but kids are their own person, and they're going to do what they are going to do. I teach my kids all sorts of things and of course.. they follow exactly what I say on everything I teach them, every time. (pft).
    I told my son not to run in the kitchen a million times because he'd hit his head on the counter and it would hurt. And of course he didn't stop until he actually did hit his head on the counter like I told him. I don't want him learning the same lesson with my gun.

    Get a dog that barks. You get an early warning protection system, and you he'll retrieve a tennis ball.
    Last edited by Zepoll; February 6th, 2012 at 07:44 PM.
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  3. #47
    Member Array DocPMD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    . . .Now, guns and kids. I've yet to see evidence that lock boxes have dramatically decreased gun accidents vs vigilance and education. And there IS a benefit to not having your firearm locked away or unloaded as evidenced by those who do defend their homes with firearms they keep near-by, loaded and accessible. . .
    Lima,

    I think you need all three: vigilance, education, and engineering controls (a safe).

    My point of view is to leave absolutely no opportunity for an accident. My pistol is either on my side or in the nightstand Vline safe, period. Is this absolutely foolproof? No. Kids could figure out the combination to the safe. But I'd bet my house that the odds are orders of magnitude higher of a child opening an unlocked drawer vs. figuring out a safe combination.

    In a way I agree with you. Situation is exactly the same in my house. My kids have been trained. In fact, I could probably leave a loaded gun sitting on a living room table and it would never get touched. But for me that simply isn't enough.

    It doesn't seem that anyone is going to convince you to change your ways. And I acknowledge that you will probably not ever have a problem. But why take a chance when there are very simple ways to improve safety?

    Good Luck,
    Doc
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  4. #48
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocPMD View Post
    Lima,

    I think you need all three: vigilance, education, and engineering controls (a safe).

    My point of view is to leave absolutely no opportunity for an accident. My pistol is either on my side or in the nightstand Vline safe, period. Is this absolutely foolproof? No. Kids could figure out the combination to the safe. But I'd bet my house that the odds are orders of magnitude higher of a child opening an unlocked drawer vs. figuring out a safe combination.

    In a way I agree with you. Situation is exactly the same in my house. My kids have been trained. In fact, I could probably leave a loaded gun sitting on a living room table and it would never get touched. But for me that simply isn't enough.

    It doesn't seem that anyone is going to convince you to change your ways. And I acknowledge that you will probably not ever have a problem. But why take a chance when there are very simple ways to improve safety?
    Good Luck,
    Doc
    -----------------------

    DocPMD you keep posting as im typing and saying it for me. thank you.

    sometimes, dispite my seeing a 'logic' i can not get it across to another.
    they are intellegent and it (to me) is a straightfoward concept.
    but---ahh, we share a commen language but our backgrounds differ. thus our perception of importance
    is different. factor in that there are more than 1 ways to skin a cat and i conclude that whats right for me may not be for you.

    push this no further but to say--please reconsider the forest from the trees; try to step into the shoes of a CHild Services person,
    or the EMT who spends all day and night responding to many 99.9% couldn't happen events.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Lima - Others have given you the data you asked for.

    "Why change?" Why not? You are gaining safety for your kids, and not really losing anything.

    If you are so concerned about the 2 seconds it takes to open a Gunvault, then get an alarm system, and/or a dog.

    The fact remains that kids die every year because they got to guns they weren't supposed to be able to get to; or operate; or that they were supposed to "know better." You can cite all the stats you wish to - those are the only stats I need to know to make up my mind on this.

    Do you walk down the street with your pistol in hand, because it will take 1.5 seconds to get it out of its holster? Why so concerned about opening a quick-access safe?
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    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  6. #50
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    punch code lock box .... $24 at Walmart... punch in 4 numbers it opens. Big enough for 2 guns. Keeps kids out of it and handy & easy for you if you need it.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    If you are so concerned about the 2 seconds it takes to open a Gunvault, then get an alarm system, and/or a dog.

    The fact remains that kids die every year because they got to guns they weren't supposed to be able to get to; or operate; or that they were supposed to "know better." You can cite all the stats you wish to - those are the only stats I need to know to make up my mind on this.
    - I'm with you on this. All of my guns are locked up, no exceptions. I have the guns I need quick access to in a GunVault next to my bed. No matter how well you train little kids and teach them, they're still kids. They have no sense of consequences. I also don't believe in keeping a gun unchambered, simply for one reason. All it takes is that one time where you forget to unchamber the gun. What ever happened to always treating a gun as if it were loaded?

    Just another quick story to go along with this. We have told my 3.5 year old repeatedly not to put things in her mouth. She's usually really good about listening. For whatever reason, my 7 year old decided to put a superball (my nephew left it over unknown to us) in her mouth. My 3.5 year decided to copy her and would have choked to death on it if we didn't see her turn bright red. I have never been so frightened in my life.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote." ~ Benjamin Franklin

  8. #52
    Member Array Mograthi's Avatar
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    While I don't have toddlers in my house, I am more in line with Lima on this. My kids have known from an early age that guns are not toys and not to be played with. I have kept a loaded firearm in my nightstand and when I wasn't home the firearm was either in the safe or on my person so no danger there. Both of my kids have managed to make it to 13 and 21 without an issue.

    I never gave it much thought really because it was how I was raised. Teach them at a young age about firearms and firearm safety, just like my parents did for me. Show them the firearms when they ask to keep the curiosity in check and take them shooting, it worked for my parents, my parents parents and me. If someone doesn't feel that is enough and must take extra precautions I am all for them doing that but don't tell me I am wrong about how I chose to do it as it worked.

    Does it make sense to have a safe and lock the firearms not being used up, indeed it does.
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  9. #53
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    What baffles me is that we carry a sidearm for the rare time when we might need it to save a life. That is a low probability/high consequence event.

    Yet, there are some parents here who seem perfectly ok with leaving a gun out where a child might find it - even though that is ALSO a low probability/high consequence event. The sad thing is that the probability of your kid finding the gun is probably much higher than you ever needing it to defend yourself, simply because the kid and the gun are in close proximity so much of the time.

    My pastor tells a proverb that goes something like this..."If three people tell you that your actions are making you look like a jackass, feel free to ignore them. If five people tell you that your actions are making you look like a jackass, you may wish to buy yourself a saddle."

    It takes TWO SECONDS to open a GunVault, folks. If you don't have two seconds to open a GunVault, you don't have two seconds to open a drawer, take out the holster, and remove the gun from the darn holster, either. I'm willing to say the GunVault is probably faster.

    I'm done with this thread. My blood pressure can't take any more. Horse...water...drink...or not. Your choice, your kids. I just feel sorry for them.
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    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  10. #54
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    The point is even if I am surprised that he suddenly does something new, I'm usually there to witness it and made aware that it is something new and to make note of and how it might change many things in our home from having to put the marshmellows up one shelf higher to the scissors being put in the back of the drawer instead of the front, etc.
    "Usually there", wouldn't be enough for me. There are many things that a kid can get in to that result in a "learning experience", falling off a chair, touching a hot pan etc. Making a mistake with a firearm brings results that a hug and a band-aide can't fix.
    Lima......I always make a point to read your posts because you seem to "get it", and I agree with you 99% of the time but I was kind of floored to see this string......
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    To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
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  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Lima - Others have given you the data you asked for.
    Not really. Others have given me opinions on what they believe... which, by the way, I do not disagree with.

    As other have said, if one feels it necessary or there is a legal requirement to disable or lock a firearm away then that is what needs to be done. As others have also noted, children are individuals and some kids are far more curious or disobedient or whatever. Their experiences and knowledge of their own environments and children require different precautions.

    I once asked my mother why they never got a safe when we were kids and she said they never saw the need as we were children who were respectful of the rules they set forward and she felt the precautions they had set up were enough.. and apparently they were. All four of her kids are still alive and well despite each living over eighteen years in a home that had unlocked and loaded firearms in several locations.

    The fact remains that kids die every year because they got to guns they weren't supposed to be able to get to; or operate; or that they were supposed to "know better." You can cite all the stats you wish to - those are the only stats I need to know to make up my mind on this.
    That's true and it's sad. But it's true of a lot of different things and not just firearms. Perhaps if we were all good parents we would wrap our children in bubble wrap until they are twenty.

    This reminds me of the ad I saw in a parenting magazine for indoor helmets for toddlers. The ad sited statistics for how many children are taken to the hospital or die each year from household falls and accidents. It was worded to make it sound like you were a horrible parent who lived unreasonably dangerously if you didn't put your normally developing, healthy child in a helmet for average daily wear until he was in preschool.

    Or there was the ad for the lead apron for pregnant women who work on computers making it sound like you are the most horrible mother, ever, if you would expose your unborn baby to all that nasty radiation if you didn't wear their lead apron.

    To someone whose child suffered a great brain injury from a household fall, something like a helmet would seem exceptionally reasonable because it gives us all the illusion that we can control everything and maybe, just maybe, we could prevent xyz if we did abc.

    The truth of the matter is, bad things happen. Even people with a dozen safes or "unloaded" guns have firearm accidents, or they have moments where they forgot to lock the safe or they just don't put the gun in the safe one night, their kid learns the combination, they thought a firearm was unloaded when it wasn't... take your pick. Having abc in place does not negate the possibility of xyz. In some cases it doesn't even limit the probability.

    Like I said, if you want to eradicate the possibility of a firearms accident your only choice is to get rid of your guns altogether. After all, if no guns were in the home than there would be no possibility for an accident and there are a lot of people who would say THOSE are the only stats they need to make up their minds on the matter. It's kind of the same argument we get from the anti-crowd.

    Do you make your toddler wear a helmet every minute of every day to protect him from household falls? Do you lock your toilet seat down to keep him from falling in and drowning?

    According to many you'd be the jackass if you didn't because you aren't doing enough to protect your child. And if five people who manufacture toddler helmets or had children suffer brain injuries from falls were to call you a jackass for not doing what they thought you should would you run out and buy a saddle or would you consider the source and do some balancing between their opinions and others you know and trust and your own experience?

    The bottom line is that I've never left an accessible firearm unattended... period (kids or no kids). Not sure what more I could add to that.

  12. #56
    Member Array DocPMD's Avatar
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    Lima,

    Funny that you use the helmet example - I was going to bring that up myself. It really bothers me sometimes that I am forcing my kids to wear their bike helmets all the time. I think to myself about all the crazy things we did as kids on bikes and none of us ever got hurt! So what's different now? Fact is, it's all about me - I couldn't live with myself if something bad did happen because I chose to let the kids off the hook.

    Same way I feel about the guns. At times I feel like the safety procedures are extreme, but I just couldn't live with myself if something happened. I err on the side of caution.

    Doc

  13. #57
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    Lima, you can produce analogies and arguments to support your practice, but it does go against conventional wisdom. There is no escaping that. You may as well be arguing to carry on an empty chamber.

    I have no doubt that you are a wonderful parent. However, there is still much for all of us to continue learning.
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  14. #58
    Member Array johnbergsing's Avatar
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    Gunvault Nano bolted to dresser at night. I've got 5 kids, ages 12-3, and I teach them gun safety/respect early on. They know not to touch them and get away fast if another kid does.

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  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    Lima, you can produce analogies and arguments to support your practice, but it does go against conventional wisdom. There is no escaping that. You may as well be arguing to carry on an empty chamber.

    I have no doubt that you are a wonderful parent. However, there is still much for all of us to continue learning.
    It's funny you should say that because I was thinking the same thing.. that this was turning into an "empty chamber" debate with people saying, "Why risk it? The chances are higher that you'll have an accident then that you'll need it in defense."

    And Doc, I wasn't talking about bike helmets... those are enforced by law in a lot of states now.. I was talking about toddler helmets for daily use in the home for preschoolers and younger learning to walk and coordination. All the rave in parenting magazines.

    And, again, I do not leave an accessible firearm unattended. That is my practice. I don't see how that is against conventional wisdom.

  16. #60
    Member Array DocPMD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    . . .And Doc, I wasn't talking about bike helmets... those are enforced by law in a lot of states now.. I was talking about toddler helmets for daily use in the home for preschoolers and younger learning to walk and coordination. All the rave in parenting magazines. . .
    Yes, I understood that - craziness. Might as well seat belt the kids to the sofa and make them sit there all day so they can't get into trouble. Good reason not to read parenting magazines and use some common sense!

    Your comments just made me think about the bike helmet thing.

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