Wisconsin home invasion and shooting

This is a discussion on Wisconsin home invasion and shooting within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Inspector71 Either Wisconsin has a Castle Doctrine law, or they don't! The following was written before Walker signed the Castle Doctrine, but ...

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Thread: Wisconsin home invasion and shooting

  1. #16
    Member Array thephanatik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector71 View Post
    Either Wisconsin has a Castle Doctrine law, or they don't!
    The following was written before Walker signed the Castle Doctrine, but it still applies.

    From the State Bar of Wisconsin:
    Castle Doctrine (UPDATE): Expanded self-defense bill on its way to Gov. Walker

    ... expands a person’s right to use deadly or substantial force against someone who unlawfully and forcibly enters their “dwelling,” “vehicle,” or “place of business,” regardless of whether such force is necessary or reasonable to defend against imminent death or substantial harm.

    A “dwelling” encompasses "any premises or portion of a premises that is used as a home or a place of residence and that part of the lot or site on which the dwelling is situated that is devoted to residential use." Wis. Stat. section 895.07(1)(h). "Dwelling" also includes other existing structures on the immediate residential premises such as driveways, sidewalks, swimming pools, terraces, patios, fences, porches, garages, and basements. Id.

    Under the new law, if signed by Gov. Walker, a court must presume a person was justified in killing an intruder, regardless of whether the property or business owner or legal occupant (collectively, “property owner”) reasonably believed the force was necessary to defend against imminent death or substantial harm.

    The presumption applies if a person entered or was in the process of entering a dwelling, vehicle, or place of business unlawfully and by force, and the property owner was present inside the dwelling, vehicle, or place of business. The property owner must reasonably believe an unlawful and forcible entry occurred or was occurring.

    If those elements are found, the property owner will benefit from an instruction to the jury that use of deadly or substantial force is presumed “reasonable.”
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  3. #17
    Member Array jerp's Avatar
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    Ok my take. Now with some things on here that i have learned. First off, i think the home owner/shooter is justified. HOWEVER, i agree with what someone said, why go out on the porch after the BG? Next, did he just shoot? Or try to identify the BG? Now tbey say he was hiding from the cops. Ill admit at 20 yrs old, ive hid from the cops to avoid an underage ticket, but the golden rule STAY OFF OTHER PEOPLES PORCHES, SUN ROOMS, AND HOUSES! and if he was hiding from the police, they (police) should have been in the area right? Hold him there, and call the police. I see him being charged with:

    1.) Under aged drinking
    2.) Running/avoiding the police
    3.) Breaking and entering (if he was on the screened porch technically he entered the home)

    And with his record, thats enough to put him away for a while. And the home owner/shooter/GG, wouldnt be in this situation now.


    On the other hand, if the BG possessed a weapon (knife, bat, club, ect..) and entered the screened porch. By all means take the shot, should you feel/be threatened.


    It will be interesting to see what happens, but above is my $.02.


    Oh and the BG's family needs to shut up, the BG had obvious drinking and drug issues. Had they rasied the kid better, he'd probably be alive. Not to mention they said something about his siblings. Will with an older brother who has drinking issues, drug issues, fights with police, and resists arrest, that is a horrible example for the younger family members. Hopefully they learn from their older brothers mistakes. So in my opinion, they parents are just to blame as our GD. They didnt wanna discipline their son, unfortunately the GG did, permanently
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  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Inspector71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W9HDG View Post
    I agree that the host of the under age party needs to be prosecuted. From what I've seen they home owner was justified in the shooting but the entire story isn't out and the friends/family of the deceased are providing the media with plenty of ammo to make it sound like it wasn't a justified shooting.

    I love the "Shoot him in the leg and call 911" comment yup because shooting to disable works!
    Yep, you're spot on. Seems all the information is coming from the family and friends of the dead guy and the media is pursuing it to suit their agenda. Poor homeowner probably won't stand a chance in the court of public opinion when the facts of the case do come out. Bo was a really good 20 year old "kid" and meant no harm. He was just hiding from the cops. A really good boy who made a mistake and ran onto the wrong porch at 2am
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  5. #19
    Member Array cbp210's Avatar
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    I am for the homeowner in this case and have no remorse for the bad guy. I am disturbed that the media is calling the bag guy a victim. I was wondering if anyone noticed that.

  6. #20
    Member Array DocPMD's Avatar
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    In Colorado this wouldn't be as clear. Our "Make My Day" law requires three elements before deadly force could be used:

    1. Unlawful entry;
    2. In the process of, or intent to commit a crime in addition to the unlawful entry;
    3. Fear that the intruder may physically harm the homeowner.

    So in this example the details would be VERY important. Clearly #1 was met. But if the kid was crouched down behind a wall, chair or table while hiding from LEO, might be hard for the homeowner to claim #2 and/or #3.

    Tough situation. Glad the homeowners are smart enough to keep their mouths shut.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array Cokeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thephanatik View Post
    His friends and family certainly are trying to make him look like an angel. A quick look at Wisconsin public records (ignoring the various speeding tickets and not wearing a seat belt):

    02-19-2009 - Underage Drinking - Guilty, No Contest
    11-17-2009 - Underage Drinking - Guilty, No Contest
    01-12-2011 - Open Intoxicants in Moving Vehicle - Guilty, No Contest
    01-12-2011 - Violate Absolute Sobriety Law - Guilty, No Contest
    01-12-2011 - Possess Drug Paraphernalia - Guilty Plea, Possession of THC, Charge Dismissed (Probably from Guilty Plea for drug paraphernalia and open intoxicants in a MV, etc.?)
    02-17-2011 - Underage Drinking - Guilty, No Contest
    05-04-2011 - Bail Jumping - Charge Dismissed
    06-03-2011 - Resisting/Obstructing an Officer and Disorderly Conduct - Still Open
    01-03-2012 - Resisting/Obstructing an Officer, Battery, Disorderly Conduct, Bail Jumping - Still Open
    01-30-2012 - Resisting/Obstructing an Officer - Still Open
    02-20-2012 - Resisting/Obstructing an Officer and Bail Jumping - Still Open

    Seems he started running into problems with underage drinking, which moved into drunk driving and possession of marijuana and as of late, resisting an officer, disorderly conducts and battery. Seems he wasn't on the right track for quite a while and repeated run ins with the police wasn't phasing him; the last couple months he was having more frequent and more serious charges brought against him. I feel bad for his friends and family, but HIS choices put him where he is today.
    2010 was a good year for him.

    If he was being chased by the cops, where were they when this happened? I'll bet they were on the scene within a minute of the shooting. They probably know exactly what happened.
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Well, it's been about 28 years since I retired from Law Enforcement, but if I remember correctly, Murderers, rapists, druggies, and a lot of other real bad people run and hide from police officers all the time. Should this home owner have tried to sit this young man down and decipher which catagory he belonged to. If he tried to do that, he could get very dead before he actually figured out the answer.
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    The libs have planned a march on the DA's office for today demanding the arrest the home owner and charge him regardless of the law.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array WD54241's Avatar
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    If they follow the law to the letter, and the homeowner kept his mouth shut until talking with his attorney than his actions were justified under the castle doctrine. The evidence will speak for it's self.
    The Victim all be it was a young man intoxicated. His record clearly demonstrated that he was a youth entering adulthood in the wrong direction with a increasing tendency of belligerence while being under the influence. If he showed any of that belligerence while in the enclosed porch the homeowner acted properly.
    The mother can cry boohoo say what she wants now, wait until the results of the autopsy, that's when the truth will emerge.
    I have not seen if the owner of the house where they were drinking has been charged? I'll say it, the kids parents don't sound like they did a good job of getting him help, they even may have enabled him! Another shining example of W.I. Socially engineered up bringing.

  11. #25
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    "Crouched behind the wall", "was hiding from police"... Whoever is saying this must have been there and was in the mind of this young criminal.

    If someone is breaking into my house at 2 am, am I to think that the thug means us no harm? I am sorry but I have a family to protect ...

    We don't know what actually transpired .... How the homeowner handled it before the shooting... It's amazing how people are making things up to justify a break-in at 2 am...
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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    The only witness to this is the homeowner. The man was on his property at 2 AM. The fact that there was an underage party and he had a crimminal record have zero to do with the shooting. The homeowner might not have known he came from a party and he didn't know about his record. I didn't have to think hard on this one. Owner was justified.
    One thing as owners of firearms is we need to make a decision quickly and correctly and by that I mean morally. Do not misunderstand this for hesitation and giving the person in your home a benefit of the doubt. Your life and the life of your family are first. If at all possible one should try to determine if the person is a threat. I know of course this is almost always not practical. We had a situation a few weeks ago where a couple came into our house with out knocking. Wife and I saw them on the camera we felt no threat as they approached the door but we were armed anyway (yaeh, we forgot to lock the door). Things could have been real different if we did not have our security system. Being suprised like that where I live would could have got them shot. They were lost and looking for another house. I think the phrase "shoot first and ask questions later" is trite and shows a bit of bravado. I am not second guessing the homeowner at all. But if possible a good tactical posture also gives you time to properly ID a threat. In hockey it is called creating time and space. Just so sad for somebody to lose a life over something so stupid (actions on the kids part). And at 20 you are not a kid anymore. I like this from the comments:
    Since when is 20 a "kid"? At 20 I was a Corporal in the USMC !
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  13. #27
    Senior Member Array WD54241's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    The libs have planned a march on the DA's office for today demanding the arrest the home owner and charge him regardless of the law.
    If true, than we are NOT dealing with a community of RATIONAL people. If they are STUPID enough to demand an arrest when the homeowner was defending his property. I hope they stop and HANG the HOMEOWNER who provided the place to drink!! Oh but using the logic of this community, Yeah lets get the guy with the gun!! They will probably will burn the neighbors house who reported the minors drinking in the first place!! Instead of blaming the kids and parents lets blame everyone else!! EXCUSE ME WHILE I GO VOMIT!!! Petty Liberal Tripe!
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911_Kimber View Post
    "Crouched behind the wall", "was hiding from police"... Whoever is saying this must have been there and was in the mind of this young criminal.

    If someone is breaking into my house at 2 am, am I to think that the thug means us no harm? I am sorry but I have a family to protect ...

    We don't know what actually transpired .... How the homeowner handled it before the shooting... It's amazing how people are making things up to justify a break-in at 2 am...
    If you are referring to my post, let me make a couple of things very clear,

    First, in no way am I justifiying what the kid did. He paid the price.

    Second, whether you agree with what I was saying or not, in Colorado there are three things that have to happen, and you better be sure that you can prove all three. It's not as simple as someone broke into my house. The attorney who spoke at my CCW class made that very clear. The laws may be different in other states, I acknowledge that. But I was just making a point from my own perspective.

    And FWIW, I didn't "make things up", I just said the details would be very important.

    Doc

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Here is the deal the DA is being pressured to file charges and because of politics about to give in.
    The people that had the party are the ones with blood on thier hands not the home owner. It could be you next.
    Contact the DA's office today tell him how you feel.
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocPMD View Post
    If you are referring to my post, let me make a couple of things very clear,

    First, in no way am I justifiying what the kid did. He paid the price.

    Second, whether you agree with what I was saying or not, in Colorado there are three things that have to happen, and you better be sure that you can prove all three. It's not as simple as someone broke into my house. The attorney who spoke at my CCW class made that very clear. The laws may be different in other states, I acknowledge that. But I was just making a point from my own perspective.

    And FWIW, I didn't "make things up", I just said the details would be very important.

    Doc
    Good thing were not talking about Colorado huh?

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