Thoughts about Aurora...

This is a discussion on Thoughts about Aurora... within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Burns I also noticed a lot of people thinking they could have stopped the guy, when in reality it's just not going ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burns View Post
    I also noticed a lot of people thinking they could have stopped the guy, when in reality it's just not going to happen. The BG had WAY too many advantages, body armor, ar-15, shotgun, pistols, tear gas, not to mention the civilians that would be in your way, and you would barely have any night vision since you were just staring at a bright movie theater screen, there's too many to list.

    I thought the Hollywood bank robbery already taught us all a lesson about what it would actually take to stop somebody like him.
    The police were engaging those BGs from across a parking lot. In Aurora it would have been across a a few seats.

    I may die one day defending myself from some whack rambo but it will be with gunpowder on my hands, not yesterday's popcorn and spilled soda on my lips, and the kill shot will be in my frontal zone, not my ass. If you're going to die, die fighting.
    BkCo1 likes this.
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  3. #62
    Member Array cuckoo429's Avatar
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    Everyone seemed to have an opinion of what they would have, should have, could have done. In Michigan, it is illegal to carry in a movie theater, it's one of our many pistol free zones (entertainment facility that seats more than 1000-including several theaters in a complex), so the point is moot. I would have most likely lost my elgibility for the census if I didn't find a good escape route.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuckoo429 View Post
    Everyone seemed to have an opinion of what they would have, should have, could have done. In Michigan, it is illegal to carry in a movie theater, it's one of our many pistol free zones (entertainment facility that seats more than 1000-including several theaters in a complex), so the point is moot. I would have most likely lost my elgibility for the census if I didn't find a good escape route.
    Just curious as I have traveled to Michigan before, and may do so again in the future.
    What is the actual penalty for carrying into a place which is posted in Michigan? Is it a misdemeanor offense or a felony? And how much jail time is involved?

    Also, people are posting what they would, or may do based on what they are allowed to do within the laws of the state in which they reside.
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  5. #64
    Member Array cuckoo429's Avatar
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    Bark'n....check here, copy and paste if you can't click on the link:


    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...s/firearms.pdf


    A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CPL holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The pistol is only subject to seizure if the holder is carrying it concealed. The following penalties may also be imposed:


    First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CPL permit suspended 6 months
    Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CPL permit revoked
    Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CPL permit revoked

    Oh, and I stand corrected from my previous post....it is illegal to carry on an entertainment venue seating more than 2500 people, not 1000 as I previously posted.

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuckoo429 View Post
    Bark'n....check here, copy and paste if you can't click on the link:


    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...s/firearms.pdf


    A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CPL holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The pistol is only subject to seizure if the holder is carrying it concealed. The following penalties may also be imposed:


    First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CPL permit suspended 6 months
    Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CPL permit revoked
    Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CPL permit revoked


    Oh, and I stand corrected from my previous post....it is illegal to carry on an entertainment venue seating more than 2500 people, not 1000 as I previously posted.
    Ouch! That is kind of harsh. And that would certainly influence a persons decision as to whether they wanted to carry in a posted place. And thus, that would also influence how an unarmed person would respond to the same kind of incident as in Aurora.

    I think I'll stay in Missouri. Much more gun friendly. No jail time, and no misdemeanor or felony record.

    2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises.

    If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense.

    If a second citation for a similar violation occurs within a six-month period, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars and his or her endorsement to carry concealed firearms shall be suspended for a period of one year.

    If a third citation for a similar violation is issued within one year of the first citation, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars and shall have his or her concealed carry endorsement revoked and such person shall not be eligible for a concealed carry endorsement for a period of three years.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cuckoo429 View Post
    Everyone seemed to have an opinion of what they would have, should have, could have done. In Michigan, it is illegal to carry in a movie theater, it's one of our many pistol free zones (entertainment facility that seats more than 1000-including several theaters in a complex), so the point is moot. I would have most likely lost my elgibility for the census if I didn't find a good escape route.
    That would depend on the size of the theater. If 2500 or over, its a PFZ, if not, you are good to go....Its on the back of your permit..
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    That would depend on the size of the theater. If 2500 or over, its a PFZ, if not, you are good to go....Its on the back of your permit..
    Right. So, the Aurora Century 16 theatre complex has, say, ~250 average seating capacity x16 theatres = 4000-ish, at that facility. Posted or not, by Cinemark/Century16. Bad juju, just making it more-enticing for the wolves in the neighborhood, like Holmes.
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  9. #68
    Senior Member Array dV8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    After the tragic events in Aurora there were some predictable outcomes. The left is already talking about stricted gun control laws, magazine capacity restrictions, etc. The gun forums are buzzing with the "if I'd have been there it all would have been avoided" talk. And most of America is shaking their head wondering what's going on in our society.

    The people claiming they'd have stopped the shooting are what I want to address. News reports (and this early they may still change) are telling us that that shooter was wearing a ballistic helmet, shin guards, neck protector, groin protector, and vest. That leaves us with few options when it comes to fighting back... particularly when we don't know how well protected the shooter is as this unfolds in front of us.

    I'm just curious how man here have trained to the extent that they're confident they could make the face shot. Keep in mind there was smoke in the air from the grenade, it was dark, innocents were running everywhere which means between you and the shooter, and of course the shooting range was 2-way.

    I'll be honest, I don't know that I could have stopped the shooter with any of the weapons I carry regularly (Sig 228, Glock 23, 1911). Now I'm not exactly typical in my training background. I've had quite a bit of training as a Marine and then as a SWAT guy. I have not had the opportunity to take a couple of civilian classes that I believe really would help in this situation. But here's how I see it.

    * None of the weapons I am likely to have on me will defeat the armor without repeated hits to the same location.
    * I've been in OC and CS. The way my eyes water would make sight alignment and sight picture very difficult.
    * The CT grips on the 1911 would be useless due to the smoke in the air from the grenade.
    * Ensuring you don't hit an innocent while engaging the BG would be nearly impossible without closing the distance and drawing fire.

    All of that said, I'd have done everything in my power to bring the fight to an end. But despite pretty high levels of training by the government and civilian instructors I don't know that my skill set measures up. I have a feeling that we're going to see more of this kind of thing. That is pushing me to look into getting specific training for these events and thinking about equipment changes that may make a difference. What are you doing in light of this event to prepare yourself for when you face something of this magnitude?
    Of course no one knows for sure.
    But this we do know now from real world experience.
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  10. #69
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Question -

    I'm a flashlight geek (kinda a lighting geek in-general, my car has a ridiculous set of Hella driving lamps supporting its HID-lo/HIR-hi setup ; for years, I carried a Surefire E2D, recently, though, I switched to a Z2S-LED w/X-Concealment clip combo, and even more recently, a Surefire LX2), and I've had some low-light training (no, not just me running around in the dark by myself, but actual training that I paid for, with vetted qualified instructors - I figure that if I'm bumping around in the dark with a live gun, I should probably get some instruction to be able to do it at least semi-right). I always have a decent light on my person.

    In one low-light class, I was exposed to both the dark as well as the rain. Ambient conditions magnified the smoke from the muzzle blast, which seemed to linger in the air.

    My lights (I had an Insight M6 mounted to my gun, but shot/cleared mainly with a handheld, a Surefire Z2S-LED) had no trouble "cutting through" those conditions.

    But what about real smoke - like what would have been expected to be in that theater?

    I've never experienced OC/CS "teargas." The only experience I've had with "smoke grenades" were ones of varying effectiveness, set-off on the playing fields of various paintball and airsoft games - I've never seen/experienced what it can do in a closed environment.

    My wife would not take kindly to me bringing my grill inside tonight, for a simulation.....

    I've tried searching this up, but I'm getting confused:

    Best light to cut through smoke - which internally references: Firefighters what do you used and liked?

    and

    Need help in smoke cutting flashlights - My Firefighter Nation

    Through these threads, I read both what makes sense to me, instinctively - i.e. a light with a tighter output will be better at controlling backscatter than one with a broad spill (which should work well for our needs, as, typically, most modern "tactical flashlights" offer a rather tight throw); as well as things which are contradictory - that you want to throw as much light forward as possible, but at the same time, too much light is just gonna splash back and blind you with backscatter, because you simply can't "cut through" smoke. :?:

    Certainly, one of the firefighters mentioned that you'll want to make sure that the helmet-light chosen isn't obnoxiously bright, that it would blind the team-mates that you're talking to. At first pass, my thought is that's great validation for carrying as bright of a light as you can - but that thought is tempered by the observations above, as well as by the further question of, if that is indeed the case, then how close do you need to be to this other person, to blind him?

    Tactically, yet another thought springs to-mind: if the environment is disruptive already, then could a strobing technique be used to hopefully confuse the aggressor? Or would this not even be worth worrying about, as the muzzle blast of the shooter's firearm(s) likely is already providing for that effect, to begin with, in the darkened theater?

    These are questions which I've never thought of before this tragic incident. Like I said, sure, I've had low-light shooting instruction - and yes, in one case, there was plenty of rain to deal with, too...but I've never practiced in a dark and smoky environment (again, yes there was plenty of gun-smoke, but that's nowhere even near the same amount of smoke I've experienced in various airsoft and paintball games, as a part of their FX).

    What is my light really capable of? How can I best exploit its capabilities?

  11. #70
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    I think they need to stop unnecessarily drugging people. Look at Columbine, those 2 boys were on Ritalin and on top of that, been bullied. And now, this killer from Aurora was on a pharmaceutical drug too. Drugs are the issue, not guns.

  12. #71
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    Thoughts about Aurora...
    You really don't want to get me started. I'm almost sure you're not concerned with MY thoughts on the ordeal.

  13. #72
    Senior Member Array dV8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Storm View Post
    I think they need to stop unnecessarily drugging people. Look at Columbine, those 2 boys were on Ritalin and on top of that, been bullied. And now, this killer from Aurora was on a pharmaceutical drug too. Drugs are the issue, not guns.
    This reminds Me of an interesting comment I heard on a news/talk show yesterday. It is that of the 4 people on death row in CO, 3 were from Auroa. What's in their water? (if they were accurate?)
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  14. #73
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    Why the concentration on his supposed advantages? (original thoughts deleted, think I'm gonna follow RamRod's lead) He did so many things wrong it's ridiculous. His biggest advantage was the hundreds of people not willing to do anything. There were a lot of bigger men in his immediate area that chose to do nothing.

    Too much focus on what could've added to the damage in such a horrific event.

  15. #74
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    The one thing I will say, in addition to comments I have already made, is this...

    There are no "heroes" any more... I think most of them were lost on United Airlines flight 93... But then, they had time to plan and coordinate a counter attack... And KNEW they were going to die anyway....

    I don't know what I would do in such a confusing situation as that theater massacre... But if only some one/group in the front had attacked him... perhaps he would have been overcome... If he was wearing body armor, his agility would have been affected... he would have been an easy tackle... once you made it through the hail of bullets... It might have been a bit like our men on the beaches of Normandy... But the sheer numbers in the theater would have been able to take him down... and maybe a few less dead and wounded.

    Of course, any who did not survive, that were not a part of the attacking group would now have more targets to sue... "If those men hadn't acted rashly, our child wouldn't have been killed" etc.

    Some eye witness account have him shooting at any who moved to run... so his position would need to be attacked from many angles... If he was moving through the crowd... it would have been somewhat easier to attack from his back side, if you survived the original onslaught...

    In closing.... There is no easy answer to this scenario... No one action is correct.

    Hide and die.
    Move and die.
    Attack and die.

    Hide and survive.
    Move and survive.
    Attack and survive.

    odds at best, 50/50... flip a coin (figuratively), and do it, it'll either work or it won't.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  16. #75
    Ex Member Array oldrwizr's Avatar
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    Coulda, woulda, shoulda, mighta. These threads are getting tiresome.

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