Deputies Raid wrong House: How would Defensive carry respond?

This is a discussion on Deputies Raid wrong House: How would Defensive carry respond? within the Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Mistakes like these will continue until they become costly for an offending department. Right now, mistakes cost them nothing; the only motivation to be accurate ...

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Thread: Deputies Raid wrong House: How would Defensive carry respond?

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Mistakes like these will continue until they become costly for an offending department. Right now, mistakes cost them nothing; the only motivation to be accurate is "bad press". When jobs are on the line and/or a sloppy dept stands to lose hundreds of thousands in a civil suit, you'll see procedure get tightened up in a hurry.

    Considering what's at stake, those with the power to conduct a no-knock should be held to a pristine standard of performance when selecting the target. They got the right house? No, they didn't. The "right house" was wherever the bad guy was living that night. This basically means they conducted a no-knock based on 2-month old information. That's crappy work. No excuses, no slack, no mistakes at all on a no-knock. If you want the freedom to screw up then go do something that doesn't involve authority and bullets.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    Maybe the unidentified lady will reconsider her concept of a "perfect tenant" for future reference.

    Seems odd that they would to execute a high-risk entry for a warrant target that they obviously hadn't even confirmed was currently in the house.
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array RKflorida's Avatar
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    MCP1810:

    My nephew works in warrants as a retired cop. They have a procedure to follow for no knock and it is extensive. One item is to contact the landlord and / or check whose name the utilities are in. They check the license plate of any vehicle in the driveway and then see if that vehicle's owner lives at the address. But they do all this only hours before they move in. No old information. I grant you that in this case the error was not the officers on the scene unless they were operating on old information and didn't bother to go to their warrants/extradition people for the latest information. This is deadly business and this is the 3rd incident I've read about this past week. Sorry for sounding so smug in my original post, I was just on my high horse and acting like a bit of a jerk.

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Unfortunately we don't have a compiled list of all the no-knocks that were well-executed, as I'm sure there are many that are carried out by highly disciplined professionals up and down the chain of command. But, as RK pointed out, this is deadly business and the margin of error should be zero. If that means the bad guys get away, then that's how it is; even if their escape directly impacts my life with grave consequences. Nobody wants ten guilty men to go free, but imprisoning even ONE innocent man is worse.
    phreddy and Texas13 like this.
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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Seems to me this is the 3rd such thread concerning wrong address in the last couple weeks. Just saying........
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
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  7. #36
    Senior Member Array JDlewis's Avatar
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    I think I would be filing a law suit to get my house fixed and to get who ever was in charge of that fired. And get me some money for injurys.


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  8. #37
    Guest Array Guest1's Avatar
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    This is ridiculous,this goes all the way up command,and the charges are so the Dept will have something to bargain with,a nice Attorney will shred that Dept nicely.

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    RKflorida,
    A lot of people have no idea what is involved in obtaining a warrant and are making a lot of assumptions here.
    One poster said they should put a GPS on his car. This also goes to the surveillance of the home.
    Do we know the suspect even owns a car? What if the motor vehicle database only has him with a drivers license at that address but no vehicles currently listed to him? What if his last state tax return has that address for him as well? All the utilities may be in the property owners name. In the past I have rented rooms to people, and I have rented rooms from people. It was always $X per month plus 1/3 of the utility bills.
    Strangely enough for some reason guys that go around shooting people don't seem real big on keeping accurate information on themselves on file with the government.
    Everybody is quick to jump on the cops involved in these things but they frequently are not even the ones who obtained the warrants. They are the guys that are on duty our on call when the detective notifies their boss that there is a warrant to be served.

    Why was it a "no knock"? Because a judge said it should be.
    ETA: When we order a pizza and get the wrong toppings, do we blame the driver who delivered it or the guy who made it?
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  10. #39
    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    Why was it a "no knock"? Because a judge said it should be.
    ETA: When we order a pizza and get the wrong toppings, do we blame the driver who delivered it or the guy who made it?
    Breaking down your door, pistol whipping, and cuffing you is not a pizza delivery. With todays GPS, GSM remote cameras, etc you can get a photo sent to your computer of 'Jose the drug dealer' walking in the door.
    jumpwing and Texas13 like this.

  11. #40
    Member Array Geezer's Avatar
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    But they all get to wear those cool, Rambo uniforms, and exercise their AUTHORITY!!!

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    mcp1810... Sir I tip my hat to your knowledge, and honesty.

    Crowman... according to the available information this was not a wrong address. The subject had in fact lived there, and recieved mail there. IMO the police were absoloutly justified in their actions, and IMO to be commended for first obtaining a search warrant and making a controlled entry when they would have been totally correct in making a dynamic entry. The controlled entry being the safer method for both the police, and the people inside the premis. The subject was deemed a dangerous and violent individual who had proven himself by shooting another person earlier. This validates the "NO KNOCK" option on the warrant.

    When serving search warrants, arrest warrants, or bench warrants (capias) there is usually the luxury of time in planning, and considering other avenues of apprehension or service. When searching for an individual who is known to be armed and dangerous there are other dynamics at work. One such constraint is time. Another being proximity. Time and space are limited, and require a different approach than lengthy investigational techniques.

    If they knew where his car was to put on a "Wakenhut" they would probably have just arrested him there... or just watched the car in case he showed up.

    I didnt see where anyone was pistol whipped.

    RKflorida... The issue of a no knock is a bit confusing... even for some police who never have need to obtain one. The prociedure for obtaining a search warrant in itself is pretty daunting when done honestly and correctly. The "NO KNOCK" portion is an endorcement by a judge. Usually to obtain one the officer must convince the judge that either evidence will be destroyed, or there is a real and immenant danger to the officers, the subjects or the general public (neighbors). The real difference between a knock and announce search warrant and the no knock is about three seconds. The difference being knock, announce and breach... and breach and announce.

    I am no fan of the militerization of the police. I believe it can only lead to a police society that will always be at odds with the general society, and removes control of the police from who they work for. The people. I think this is the greates threat today to our civil society. Were becoming communities with police for the sake of police. And Officer safety trumping constitutionally protected rights..... But not this time... This was probably some good police work.

  13. #42
    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    From the original article



    "So I went outside with my hands up, all kinds of red dots went on me and my heart dropped," said Steve.

    Linda stayed behind, grabbed her cell phone and dialed 911. Meanwhile, Steve says he was outside letting deputies know exactly how he felt.

    "I am yelling at them the whole time like, 'Why did you have to rip my door off? Why did you do that? Just say hey, the sheriff's department. The window was wide open. I would have came and opened it up for you.' They said 'Shut up!' and started shocking me," he said.

  14. #43
    Ex Member Array ComplexKaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theskunk View Post
    From the original article



    "So I went outside with my hands up, all kinds of red dots went on me and my heart dropped," said Steve.

    Linda stayed behind, grabbed her cell phone and dialed 911. Meanwhile, Steve says he was outside letting deputies know exactly how he felt.

    "I am yelling at them the whole time like, 'Why did you have to rip my door off? Why did you do that? Just say hey, the sheriff's department. The window was wide open. I would have came and opened it up for you.' They said 'Shut up!' and started shocking me," he said.
    That's why he was tased.

    I guess they didn't want to go hands on, but still it doesn't match one part of their force policy. Yet I know exactly what they are going to say if their force policy is mentioned if the guy decides to sue.

    You see the taser falls under the 3rd category in their force chart which has two titles and they will justify it buy using the second part of the title which is "High risk". They will say they were in a high risk environment so they had to taser him.

  15. #44
    Member Array DrahtDog's Avatar
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    Pitiful, land of the free? I think not. It must be nice to have a job with next to zero accountability and pretty much immune to lawsuits.

  16. #45
    Member Array abillb's Avatar
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    Your right. If you "open up" you'll have x 5 as many incoming.
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